Strange water pipe plumbing

[loziv]

In our house which we are currently modernising (the previous / existing pipework for the radiatiors was the old imperial piping for the radiators which the plumbers changed when they put in a new system boiler greenstar 30 cdi and new radiators replacing an older stelrad floor mounted boiler which had two seperate feeds I think for upstairs and downstairs.

However in the airing cupboard next to the hot water cyclinder is an inline pump which I thought just powered the shower, however it turns out that is powers the hot water tap in the bath along with a hot water tap in a seperate bathroom upstairs via plastic white pushpipe fittings. - Is this normal or should I get the plumbers to replace this with a new copper feed from the hotwater cyclinder?

 

[WHPES]

What does it say on the pump? Sounds like a shower booster pump. Will have been put on if your pressure is too low without it.

Are the taps in the other bathrooms mixer taps?

 

[loziv]

the bath is a mixer tap.

The sink in the other toilet room is not a mixer though.

How can you improve the hot water pressure? as currently the cold water pressure is much stronger than the hot

 

[WHPES]

If you are on gravity the only way to improve it without changing to an unvented cylinder is by adding a booster pump to the hot water outlet on the cylinder.

If it is a mixer shower, both hot and cold feeds must be balanced. It should have its own feeds independent to any other outlets - hot from the cylinder and cold from the cistern (never from the mains).

 

[loziv]

How do you know if you have a gravity fed system?

I have just had installed a Worcester Greenstar 30CDI System Boiler?

Not sure if I have an unvented cylinder (is this the one in the airing cupboard?) and how much are they?

I think its a standard hot water tank as this was not replaced only the microbore pipework that fed the upstairs radiators.

After the system was installed we had a leak from the cold water expansion which boiled over flexed the lid and the overflow pipe came away flooding the property. So they came back and fixed this problem and put in 2 non return valves upstairs as the upstairs rads were heating up from the hot water even though the central heating was off.

Not sure if this is related to the poor hot water pressure etc

 

[WHPES]

Gravity system has a large header tank above it. Unvented cylinder has no tank and mains going in instead and a blue or white bottle on top or nearby and other devices on or round it. There is usually a label on the cylinder.

The repair you describe with non return valves sounds like a bodge up and I would get someone competent to look at the problem again. Non return valves are definitely not a fix for overheating and it could be potentially dangerous! If the tank was getting that hot it is probably due to incorrect configuration of the pipework and hot water pumping over. It could also cause other serious problems such as rapid corrosion and damage to the system and destruction of the boiler if not addressed quickly.

In days gone by, anti-gravity valves were used to stop reverse circulation on unpumped systems but should not be used nowadays as do not conform to Building Regs - should instead be converted to a fully pumped system!

 

[loziv]

Hi

We asked the installers if its normal these days to fit a non return valve and they said yes its totally fine? But should it be the motorised valves that should control this and stop hot water being pumped over and up in to the cold expansion tank in the loft? How could I prove to them that its incorrect configuration of the pipework - as they have only run new pipework for the upstairs rads because they could not get a join for the existing 1/4 inch imperial pipework - as far as I know the hot water pipework is the same?


We have just had another problem - a leak from a radiator downstairs - which was on the existing imperial 1/4 inch pipework - its a Greenstar 30 CDI system boiler will the leak affect the boiler pressure etc and what would the best fix be - they suggested using pfte tape around the leak?

 

[Blackcatgas]

You used to have to use non return valves to stop radiators getting hot on old gravity systems, you shouldnt need one on a modern y or s plan conversion.
Have they upgraded the system to a y or s plan? they should really to confirm with part L of the building regs, having said that Ive just put a new system boiler on an old C plan, Ialthough Iam going to 4 pipe it from the Viessmann Boiler direct to the cylinder later this year.

 

[loziv]

Thanks - what is a modern y or s plan conversion? I think they just fitted onto the existing system - I never knew about y or s plan. What do I need to tell them to do to fix the problems (can they now convert to y or s plan or is it too late as they have put non return valves in?) we paid a lot of money £3,700 for this and would like it to be fully working

Any advice on what I need to go back to them to say? How do I know that I am on a c plan system? is there a way of checking which system I am on - the only thing I remember them saying is that the old boiler ran two seperate feeds one for downstairs and one for upstairs, and that was why I needed to get a Greenstar 30CDI system boiler or a combi.

Any ideas also on this - We have just had another problem - a leak from a radiator downstairs - which was on the existing imperial 1/4 inch pipework - its a Greenstar 30 CDI system boiler will the leak affect the boiler pressure etc and what would the best fix be - they suggested using pfte tape around the leak?

Pls help
Lauren

 

[ecowarm]

can you post some pictures of boiler and hot water cylinder pipework please

 

[Bartdude]

Agree with ecowarm,some pictures of the installation are needed here,sounds like a bodge but I'll reserve judgement for now!

The leak has probably been caused by changing over to a pressurised heating system,that happens sometimes and should be fixable,is the pipework definitely 1/4?
1/2 is more likely

 

[GQuigley67]

you dont get 1/4"(15mm) imperial, only 3/4"(22mm) and joining onto old imperial pipework is totally fine they just sound like a bunch of cowboys to me, so lets see if you can post some pictures and convince me otherwise

 

[loziv]

Hi all, here are the pics of the boiler and pipework in the boiler room, airing cupboard, gas feed under the stairs and pic of the rad

Please help as they are coming tomorrow and I want to make sure they complete a proper job and not just a patch up, in case they think they can pull the wool over my eyes as I am a single woman

Lauren

 

[GQuigley67]

picture 6 and 9 look rough as hell !!!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

they have done not pleasant to look install .........sorry to say it but absolute no no
can not say much more then that !!!
just ask them to leave and get HEATING ENGINEERS to put the lot correct !

 

[GQuigley67]

for that price i would be wanting better workmanship than that

 

[SafeGasInstall]

also local solicitor can help /to arrange for them to pay to the heating engineers for the time to put things correct !
auto by pass missing ,no earth on gas pipe /rad install just finished me off

 

[SafeGasInstall]

this is why i never use plastic pipe work , buster pump's pipeing is better mixed up then my wife's spaghetti

 

[loziv]

A lot of that pipework is original pipework and they have just connected the new system into it (same as the pipework around the hot water tank), the radiator was already there but this is where the leak occured from the right hand pipe

Whats auto by pass? where should the earth be (which pic?)

So can you see why I am getting the following problems

1.) Very very noisy from cold expansion tank when drawing hot water
2.) Whirring noise from valve in boiler room when hot water turned on
3.) Leak from radiator and pressure in boiler dropping
4.) Poor hot water pressure

and what do I need to tell them to put it right, I have paid them a lot of money and want to make sure they fix it (the strange thing is they are an established reputable firm and also worcester bosch installers according to the worcester site so they should know what they are doing!) Also should I get a part l certificate for the gas install? as I have not had one yet?

I did ask for a new hot water cyclinder and they told me that the one I have is fine, they kept pushing a combi system so perhaps this is what they are used to installing and with the original pipework in my house they have got out of their depth - the problem is I have paid them - and need to get it working properly so I need to read them the riot act tomorrow so what should I say to them? Any ideas in bullet form I can shoot off to them, could you complain to worcester bosch as they are listed as installers on their site or to gas safe?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

check the link below and just mention to them that gas safe inspector is booked to check the work next Friday ..this will make them put everything correct and give you certificate did they show you there gas safe cards ? if not ask them why they did not !!!!!!
and then mention Gas Safe Inspector again and they will put it all correct and you will be shocked how it works !

 

[Blackcatgas]

My 2ps worth, as said some of the existing pipework looks a bit rough, not the worst ive seen though and as long as its not leaking etc then fair enough, the new pipework isnt as good as mine, but ok,.The leak from the rad can be fixed with ptfe and its mostlikely this leak thats causing the pressure in the boiler to drop.
Poor hot water pressure? well its the same cylinder and tank only a new boiler connected so I cant see how it can be any better or worse than with the old boiler.
looks like a cylinder stat has been fitted and there is 2x 2 port valves fitted, so I can only assume from your pictures that IT IS AN S PLAN , youve paid alot of money for this work, not ridiculous money but top money for this job, I dont think that youve been conned.
Dont let this loose you a night sleep, everything can be sorted, talk to your installers tommorow, dont lose it with them,be calm, Iam sure that they will sort it.
Its sooooo easy to pick fault with work from the comfort of my/anybodys armchair, but without being able to see it in the flesh and only relying on some pics youve taken from your phone its impossible for me to decipher.
Chin up, write down all your questions that you want to ask, get some rest, It will all work itself out for the better tomorow .

 

[loziv]

How long should it take to fix? as I supposed to be getting new carpets fitted on Tuesday and Wednesday and we dont want to rip them back up if there are future problems with the pipework etc?

Is it ok to use existing pipework then? I did ask them to change the hw cyclinder but they told me that the one I had was fine and dont waste your money.

What should I be asking them when they come - for example why is the hot water pressure poor as it should be mains pressure with this system, or is the spaghetti of existing pipework by the HW cyclinder causing problems? What they can do to sort this out?

Why have they put in 2 non return valves when some on thr forums are saying they should not do this?

Why is the cold expansion tank in the loft making such a racket when you are drawing hot water from the system?

Why do the pipes make so much noise when the system is refilling with water, again after you have drawn hot water?

Will using PTFE tape on radiator last - or are they better running new pipework to it as the gas feed in is only 5ft away?

All I want is to make sure that the central heating / water system is going to last and not having to fork out for new pipework etc in 18 months time, and dont want to be fobbed off with a patch up job.

 

[Blackcatgas]

The cold tank in the loft is making a racket because its filling with water to replace the water in the tank that you have drawn off when you open the hot tap, a new ball valve, 2 in tandem or an equuilibruim valve might help this
The pipes are noisy because you get white noise whe you run water at high pressure through pipes, again a new ballvalve , 2 ball valves in tandem or an equilibruim valve would help.
PTFE on the fitting will probably outlast you and I if done properly, dont connect the radiator up to the gas feed, your house might blow up.
Your boiler is a system boiler, the heating circuit is pressurised, not the hot water, the water comes from your tank in the loft which feeds your big green cylinder,which is then connected to your tap so your hot water isnt mains pressure, the fact that the previouse house owner the pump put in was probably to adress the "poor pressure". Your cylinder looks fairly modern so i might not of reccomended you having a new one.

 

[loziv]

They said the hot water pressure is poor because of the header tank in the loft. They said you could build a platform for the expansion tank in the loft to increase its height away from the cylinder but it would not make that much difference? - is that true?

In my old house (which was about 10 years old - we have 2 tanks in the loft - with this new system there is only one) and we had great hot water pressure and the header tank was about the same distance away as what I have in this new house yet the pressure is nowhere near as good?

Also on my greenstar 30cdi system boiler when both the heating and water is on should the pressure gauge on the boiler just be above 1 (basically just in the green zone or should it be higher than this?) as they are coming back again tomorrow with a new part for the filling of the expansion tank in the loft (they mentioned about a longer pipe which goes into the water which would make less noise?) the noisy pipes they said was air in the system - and they did get some air out of the system - but later on the noise is still there so could there be more air still in the system - and how has it come back if they had taken all the air already out?)

 

[Blackcatgas]

They said the hot water pressure is poor because of the header tank in the loft. They said you could build a platform for the expansion tank in the loft to increase its height away from the cylinder but it would not make that much difference? - is that true?

In my old house (which was about 10 years old - we have 2 tanks in the loft - with this new system there is only one) and we had great hot water pressure and the header tank was about the same distance away as what I have in this new house yet the pressure is nowhere near as good?

Also on my greenstar 30cdi system boiler when both the heating and water is on should the pressure gauge on the boiler just be above 1 (basically just in the green zone or should it be higher than this?) as they are coming back again tomorrow with a new part for the filling of the expansion tank in the loft (they mentioned about a longer pipe which goes into the water which would make less noise?) the noisy pipes they said was air in the system - and they did get some air out of the system - but later on the noise is still there so could there be more air still in the system - and how has it come back if they had taken all the air already out?)

Hi lauren, lifting the tank up 1m will increase the pressure by 0.1 bar (10m=1bar) so not woth the effort really, I know what your saying about your old house and it had good pressure from similiar set up etc,but it could of had different taps etc etc etc I could give you lots of reason but without seeing it am only stabbing in the dark,but there could be a problem with your set up. You cant really blame the guys that have fitted your boiler for the poor pressure, the boiler presure gauge should read 1 when cold and could go up to anywhere around 2.5 when hot,(as you heat water it expands thus increasing the pressure) the leak on the radiator probably caused the air in the pipes, one thing though.... I still dont know why theyve needed to us one way valves to stop certain rads from getting hot, this is more likely a piping issue (a pipe connected up where it shouldnt be or in the wrong sequence).