Thermostat problems (am I being fobbed off?)

[BLB]

Hi,
I’ve just brought a new build town house. I have 2 thermostats that control the heating. 1 on the 2nd floor in the master bedroom- this controls the heating to all 4 bedrooms across 2 floors. The 2nd thermostat is in the lounge which is on the first floor, this controls all bathrooms, the lounge and the whole of the ground floor.
When I put the heating on, the lounge thermostat is set at 22 degrees, the lounge doesn’t seem to get cold or drop below 22 degrees. Therefore to enable the heating to come on in the downstairs or in the bathrooms I have to turn this thermostat up to 30, open the lounge window and close the lounge door! I have advised the housing developer that this seems to be a design fault. He has advised “ Might I suggest to help the situation, to turn off one of the rads in the living room by turning the lockshield valve clockwise until it is closed (you do not need to be a plumber to do this)”
Does this sound like a reasonable permanent solution to you professional plumbers? Or just a quick fix that should be followed up with something else?
Many thanks

 

[ShaunCorbs]

really the main thermostat should be in the coldest room / place / area

and tbh i would get them to move it, lounge is a stupid place to put a thermostat

 

[BLB]

really the main thermostat should be in the coldest room / place / area

and tbh i would get them to move it, lounge is a stupid place to put a thermostat

Thanks, I agree with you, but Fairview state it is part of their standard build design!!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I would ask to see the heating design spec

Do you have trvs in the lounge or just lockshield both sides of the rads ?

 

[BLB]

I would ask to see the heating design spec

Do you have trvs in the lounge or just lockshield both sides of the rads ?

Sorry, excuse my ignorance but unsure what a TRV or lock shield is. If your asking if the lounge radiators have their own thermostats they don’t. Although every other radiator in the house does.

 

[Best]

TRVs are thermostatic radiator valves.
Lockshield valves are valves that have a cover (shield) to prevent them being turned, so in effect, locked at a position. Hence the name lockshield.
Usually meaning a radiator valve that is for balancing the flow to radiator.
Sounds to me your lounge is overheating compared to rest of rooms and perhaps radiator output sizes are not comparable in heat to each room.
If the lounge rads are too powerful, but other rads are still to correct outputs for their rooms, then that is really okay. Just needs the room stat fitted elsewhere, like in a hall and TRV removed on hall rad and TRVs fitted on lounge rads

 

[Vee]

Sounds a mighty stupid interpretation of building regulations compliance without thought of practicality.

 

[DevsAd]

BLB, the 'stat in your lounge is fine - that's where many people have them installed, including me.

Why? Because it's the room where you want to have the temp 'just right', and most consistent and controllable. All the other rooms on that circuit are of secondary importance.

(Exceptions to this would be if you also had a solid fuel stove or fire in lounge which would add to the heat and then cause the thermostat to go off before the rest of the house becomes warm.)

So, usually, there is nothing wrong with having it located there.

Your issue is that the rads in the lounge are giving out too much heat relative to the rads in the other rooms on the ground floor, so your lounge heats up too quickly and powerfully. This shuts off the thermostat before the other rooms are up to the desired warmth.

Solution - exactly as your house developer says - you need to turn down the supply to the lounge rads so they release less heat. This is called 'balancing' the rad system and is done by - yes - turning down the lockshield valve, perhaps fully off or possibly just down a bit*.

Each rad has two valves. One is normally easily turnable by the home owner so as to control the rad's output as desired. This valve - in most rooms - will have TRV head on it so that they control themselves to a large extent, but in the rooms where the thermostat is installed these will not have TRVs as you want the room 'stat to do this work instead (otherwise the two 'stat systems would 'fight' eachother).

The other valve on a rad is the 'lockshield' and this one is usually set to a particular point by the installer using pipe thermostats (tho' I bet many don't...), the idea being that each rad in each room gives out the 'right' amount of heat to their respective rooms so that they all heat up at the same rate. Ie 'balanced'. (Also the rads furthest away from the boiler would be expected to have a poorer flow as the pipe runs are longer and closer rads will allow easier passage to the water flow. The lockshields are also tweaked for this, closing the closest rads more, and allowing easier flows to the furthest away ones. But don't worry about that!)

*TBH, the actual rad valve you should turn down/off is the 'householder-adjustable' one and not the lockshield, unless the householder one is a TRV in which case you do need to tackle the lockshield. But, if the householder valve is a simple 'manual' type (which it should be in the lounge), then that is the one I'd use. Turn it clockwise until it bottoms-out (fully off), then back it open a half-turn. Do ditto with all other lounge rads (best to turn down all the rads, than simply turn one of them fully off). Then monitor how they behave.

If you now find the lounge takes too long to heat up to the desired temp - and the other ground floor rooms are piping - then simply open each lounge valve a further half-turn. They respond quickly, and a quarter-turn can make a lot of difference.

Keep monitoring and adjusting these lounge rads until you get what you are after - all the rooms heating up at a similar rate.

And leave the room stat where it is...

Can you confirm what types of valves you have on your lounge rads? A photo would be good.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lockshield valves don't control the capacity of the rad, so even if you turn it down you will still have the same problem (all they do is restrict the flow so it's not robbing the heat from the furthest rads or an as isolating point)

 

[DevsAd]

I'm sorry Shaun, I have to disagree. You can control the output of any rad by adjusting the lockshield - in exactly the same was as adjusting the 'control' valve; they both ultimately work in the same way by controlling the water flow (in or out - it's the same).

A reduced flow will mean a lower heat output, and that's what BLB needs - less output from his lounge rads.

Best for him to use the 'control' valve rather than the lockshield, but both will do the job.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Trv doesn't reduce the flow it stops it once the set temp is reached so no it doesn't work the same as a lockshield

There won't be a trv / control valve as the room stat is in there and you should know you can't have a trv in the same room as the stat needs to be lockshield both sides

 

[Best]

Lockshields definitely do not control the heat output to a radiator. Unless you have them nearly tight off, but that would mean the rad wouldn't work properly. They do only control the flow, which then maintains the heat output to other rads by not robbing them of flow.
The rads in lounge are perhaps overpowered relative to other rads.
I don't like a room stat in a lounge because body heat will raise room temperature if you have several folk in room and also any fire would obviously heat the room

 

[Darren Jackson]

Devsad, Both valves to the radiator will be lockshields as the room stat is in there! there should not be a 'householder' valve as you call it. For best results the room stat needs locating to the hall and the TRV swapping over to the lounge radiators so that you can control them. In my home I only need the room stat (which is located in the hallway) set to 14 to achieve 21 in the lounge and 19 in all the other rooms (except the hallway) where 14 in there is fine as you only ever pass through and do not spend any length of time in there.

 

[DevsAd]

This is semantics, folks!

Thank you all, but yes I do understand (tho' not a pro plumber) the workings of balancing a system, the use of lockshields, TRVs and manual valves. And the pros and cons of having a room stat in the lounge (which, on balance, in my view is still the overall best place (pros & cons for all locations) - provided there isn't another heat source in there).

If the OP, BLB, has an 'oversized' rad in the lounge, then he can make it give a permanently smaller output (make it effectively behave like a smaller rad) by reducing the flow to it. He can do this visa the lockshield or the manual valve.

End of.

And that makes far more sense than suggesting to the poor guy he should move his room stat.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

This is semantics, folks!

Thank you all, but yes I do understand (tho' not a pro plumber) the workings of balancing a system, the use of lockshields, TRVs and manual valves. And the pros and cons of having a room stat in the lounge (which, on balance, in my view is still the overall best place (pros & cons for all locations) - provided there isn't another heat source in there).

If the OP, BLB, has an 'oversized' rad in the lounge, then he can make it give a permanently smaller output (make it effectively behave like a smaller rad) by reducing the flow to it. He can do this visa the lockshield or the manual valve.

End of.

And that makes far more sense than suggesting to the poor guy he should move his room stat.

Either way it's not the op problem, it's the builders

Also don't listen to the pros then, especially who design heating systems for a living

 

[Darren Jackson]

I am not being drawn into a full on debate, nor do I find it petty! but putting the room stat in the warmest room of the house kind of defeats the object of having it at all. Let the room stat control the whole zone it is designed to do and not just control one room. that is what the TRV's are for, to control each individual room. And on that note I'm out!

 

[DevsAd]

Either way it's not the op problem, it's the builders

Also don't listen to the pros then, especially who design heating systems for a living

I know you do, Shaun, and I'm sure BLB wouldn't be having this issue had you been the installer in charge.

But the poor OP came on here for a small piece of advice, to sort a situation that the site manager gave him a perfectly reasonable solution to (although crude in that turning one rad fully off is silly), and there followed what I can't help seeing as truly unhelpful, over-complicated answers for the guy, that would have had him going back to the manager accusing him of being 'wrong' and demanding alternative solutions, or even paying for these unnecessary alterations himself.

Yes, the pros on here may be technically correct in what they say, but do you think for a nano-second that the house builder is going to swap these rads for smaller ones as a solution?! Or move the 'stat to a different location? I guess they might do if the guy makes enough of a fuss, but ALL that BLB needs to do to FIX this issue is to tweak down his lockshields to the point his 'large' rads output like 'smaller' ones.

The manual control valves still have full control over the rads as he wishes, except now when 'fully open' the new, reduced-max output will have been determined by the new, further-closed lockshield setting.

That's it. That's all the guy needed to know. A simple, practical and obvious solution.

 

[Best]

Hall in my opinion is best for a room stat because it generally stays a constant temperature relative to other rooms, albeit sunshine can raise heat in some halls. But it is still critical that the hall radiator is not oversized, or it would mean the hall stat would need turned very high to allow heating to keep doing that circuit.
If you do have a room stat in the hall then that means the lounge radiator can be slightly oversized but with a Trv fitted, therefore having the advantage of guaranteeing the lounge will heat quicker and always be up to temperature even in extreme cold weather.
Homes with no hall are going to ruin that idea though.

 

[Best]

There is no difference generally in heat output from a radiator if the lockshield valve is turned full on, half on, quarter on. Even a last rad on a circuit will only work less well if other rads are robbing it.
The flow has to be turned below the necessary flow needed for the radiators output (depending on heat loss for room temperature) to reduce heat in radiator.
This would mean the valve open a minuscule amount, - so little in fact that it could easily block eventually with the slightest particles.
The radiator then wouldn't work properly anyhow as the room temperatures will alter between say, a mild Spring day and a severe winter day.
So what you would have done is disabled the radiator.

 

[DevsAd]

There is no difference generally in heat output from a radiator if the lockshield valve is turned full on, half on, quarter on. Even a last rad on a circuit will only work less well if other rads are robbing it.
The flow has to be turned below the necessary flow needed for the radiators output (depending on heat loss for room temperature) to reduce heat in radiator.
This would mean the valve open a minuscule amount, - so little in fact that it could easily block eventually with the slightest particles.
The radiator then wouldn't work properly anyhow as the room temperatures will alter between say, a mild Spring day and a severe winter day.
So what you would have done is disabled the radiator.

This is getting silly.

The guy has a rad that's seemingly too powerful, and the solution is not to turn the lockshield down to compensate in case it blocks with sediment? By the same token he shouldn't turn the manual valve down too far either in case that blocks?

If you reduce the flow to that rad using the ls, then it'll output less but you'll still have the full range of control over the rad (up to the 'new' max) using the manual control valve if you want. That is what he's after. It doesn't matter if it's spring or winter - it'll output the 'new' same, which is what he wants.

Are you telling me that if a customer complains of a too-powerful rad, your solution is to replace it with a smaller one rather than 'turn it down'?

 

[BLB]

There is no difference generally in heat output from a radiator if the lockshield valve is turned full on, half on, quarter on. Even a last rad on a circuit will only work less well if other rads are robbing it.
The flow has to be turned below the necessary flow needed for the radiators output (depending on heat loss for room temperature) to reduce heat in radiator.
This would mean the valve open a minuscule amount, - so little in fact that it could easily block eventually with the slightest particles.
The radiator then wouldn't work properly anyhow as the room temperatures will alter between say, a mild Spring day and a severe winter day.
So what you would have done is disabled the radiator.

Hi all,
Many thanks for all your ideas, by the way BLB is a lady! I’m going to go back to Fairview using some of your suggestions, I cannot see why I would pay thousands for a house and have to adjust radiators and thermostats, and as one of you mentioned this could cause problems later with a possible blockage of that radiator and consequently the entire system.
I will put a pick up later, when home so that you can advise which side this lock valve is and which way I could turn it. But I don’t see this as a full time resolution to the problem.
Thanks Bridget

 

[Best]

This is getting silly.

The guy has a rad that's seemingly too powerful, and the solution is not to turn the lockshield down to compensate in case it blocks with sediment? By the same token he shouldn't turn the manual valve down too far either in case that blocks?

If you reduce the flow to that rad using the ls, then it'll output less but you'll still have the full range of control over the rad (up to the 'new' max) using the manual control valve if you want. That is what he's after. It doesn't matter if it's spring or winter - it'll output the 'new' same, which is what he wants.

Are you telling me that if a customer complains of a too-powerful rad, your solution is to replace it with a smaller one rather than 'turn it down'?

No, not being silly. Just pointing out any lockshield, or any wheelhead valve will not limit the heat output of a radiator, unless it is turned to almost tight off.
And we are talking about a very small path for the water to pass through the valve to ensure rad doesn't heat properly, so the gap if left permanent will block eventually. That is why a rad valve will create noise if near off, - try this yourself on a rad to actually significantly achieve low heat flow/heat output to prove me right.
Where did you hear that ordinary valves are a way of controlling heat? If you fill a basin full of hot water from a tap turned on just a little, you will still get a basin of hot water, just slower.
TRVs don't work in same way, they work more or less by a on/off/on/off operation controlled by their sensor and not by a narrowing of the valve opening, like you suggest with a LS valve, although TRVs do gradually close and open. TRVs are not a flow limiter by design, but more a flow stopper.
I think it is being silly for your suggestion on a new home to have to constantly turn a lockshield (or wheelhead) to fine tune a rad in an attempt to lower heat in a lounge because the room stat is fitted in same room.
Note that the valves probably are both lockshield (that would be correct given that the lounge stat relies on that rad to be constantly on). So lockshield valves are not just something you can turn easily when you fancy. They are for isolation and balancing only and turning them near off won't work when on the following day the outside temperature drops 10 degrees.
I suggest the OP gets the builder to do the job properly and relocate the room stat. If lounge gets hot when the other rooms are not up to required heat, I think that tells you something about the rads size relation and whoever designed the system.

 

[Riley]

I would say in short yes you are being fobbed off. I was always taught that thermostat should be in coldest part of the house. Any workarounds suggested above are just that, workarounds. They are not resolving what has been an error in rad sizing, thermostat positioning or system design as a whole

 

[Riley]

I know you do, Shaun, and I'm sure BLB wouldn't be having this issue had you been the installer in charge.

But the poor OP came on here for a small piece of advice, to sort a situation that the site manager gave him a perfectly reasonable solution to (although crude in that turning one rad fully off is silly), and there followed what I can't help seeing as truly unhelpful, over-complicated answers for the guy, that would have had him going back to the manager accusing him of being 'wrong' and demanding alternative solutions, or even paying for these unnecessary alterations himself.

Yes, the pros on here may be technically correct in what they say, but do you think for a nano-second that the house builder is going to swap these rads for smaller ones as a solution?! Or move the 'stat to a different location? I guess they might do if the guy makes enough of a fuss, but ALL that BLB needs to do to FIX this issue is to tweak down his lockshields to the point his 'large' rads output like 'smaller' ones.

The manual control valves still have full control over the rads as he wishes, except now when 'fully open' the new, reduced-max output will have been determined by the new, further-closed lockshield setting.

That's it. That's all the guy needed to know. A simple, practical and obvious solution.

There is a problem, there is a correct fix, it’s a new house why would this not be the builders problem to correct properly?

 

[Best]

A room stat fitted in an upstairs master bedroom would make sense if the other bedroom radiators on that zone are sized comparably to that room to give approx same heat. That means when the master bedroom room stat reaches heat, the other bedrooms hopefully will be approx same temperature max. If the room stat on that floor was put on the hallway from a bedroom, it would be affected by heat rising from floors below.
But on ground floor the room stat fitted in the hall is an ideal location IMO because it is a stable temperature area and lounge rooms tend to need high heat and their radiators often are a bit oversized to guarantee a large room heats well and quickly. Wouldn't surprise me if the OP has a lounge room stat close to a radiator as well.