Thermostat problems (am I being fobbed off?)

[DevsAd]

No, not being silly. Just pointing out any lockshield, or any wheelhead valve will not limit the heat output of a radiator, unless it is turned to almost tight off.
And we are talking about a very small path for the water to pass through the valve to ensure rad doesn't heat properly, so the gap if left permanent will block eventually. That is why a rad valve will create noise if near off, - try this yourself on a rad to actually significantly achieve low heat flow/heat output to prove me right.
Where did you hear that ordinary valves are a way of controlling heat? If you fill a basin full of hot water from a tap turned on just a little, you will still get a basin of hot water, just slower.
TRVs don't work in same way, they work more or less by a on/off/on/off operation controlled by their sensor and not by a narrowing of the valve opening, like you suggest with a LS valve, although TRVs do gradually close and open. TRVs are not a flow limiter by design, but more a flow stopper.
I think it is being silly for your suggestion on a new home to have to constantly turn a lockshield (or wheelhead) to fine tune a rad in an attempt to lower heat in a lounge because the room stat is fitted in same room.
Note that the valves probably are both lockshield (that would be correct given that the lounge stat relies on that rad to be constantly on). So lockshield valves are not just something you can turn easily when you fancy. They are for isolation and balancing only and turning them near off won't work when on the following day the outside temperature drops 10 degrees.
I suggest the OP gets the builder to do the job properly and relocate the room stat. If lounge gets hot when the other rooms are not up to required heat, I think that tells you something about the rads size relation and whoever designed the system.

I accept a lot of what you say, Best, and I have one of these noisy valves myself on a rad that's closest to the boiler - drives me up t'wall.

We are only talking about reducing the output from one - or ideally both - of these rads, that's all, probably only by 20-30%. Just turning them down, that's all. Or are such rads uncontrollable?

I think this part is a bit (intentionally?!) misleading, tho': "If you fill a basin full of hot water from a tap turned on just a little, you will still get a basin of hot water, just slower." Yes, of course the water coming in to the rad will be at the same temp regardless of how far the valve is closed, but since there will be less of it, it's heat capacity will also be reduced - so the rad will emit less heat.

"Where did you hear that ordinary valves are a way of controlling heat? " Eh?! Are you suggesting that you cannot control the output of a rad with manual valves?

Sorry, best, I think that is also misleading. Whichever room has the room stat fitted should have 'manual' valves fitted and not a TRV. Yes? The next step - when balancing the whole house's system - is to tweak the lockshields to achieve the desired temp drop across each rad. Then, with all the other rads controlled by their TRVs set to each desired position, the 'room stat' location will almost certainly require the manual valve to also be tweaked so that it gives out the correct heat for that room, relative to the heats in the other rooms.

To do this you have to - gasp - adjust the manual valve.

(Sorry - becoming flippant... )

It'll be interesting to see what response BLB gets. To try and suggest to her - as some have done - that the lounge is simply the 'wrong' place to have the room stat is, I believe, misleading. There are pros and cons for any location (with the hall, it's that the rest of your house goes on fire if the JWs keep you chatting too long by the front door).

If the two rads in BLB's lounge are of different sizes, then I would be interested to know how well her house would behave if she shut off the smaller one completely. If this resolves the problem and her lounge is still warmed through evenly without this second rad, she could then even look at having it removed and freeing up some wall space.

I'd also like to know what would happen if she simply turned down both rads.

 

[Riley]

I accept a lot of what you say, Best, and I have one of these noisy valves myself on a rad that's closest to the boiler - drives me up t'wall.

We are only talking about reducing the output from one - or ideally both - of these rads, that's all, probably only by 20-30%. Just turning them down, that's all. Or are such rads uncontrollable?

I think this part is a bit (intentionally?!) misleading, tho': "If you fill a basin full of hot water from a tap turned on just a little, you will still get a basin of hot water, just slower." Yes, of course the water coming in to the rad will be at the same temp regardless of how far the valve is closed, but since there will be less of it, it's heat capacity will also be reduced - so the rad will emit less heat.

"Where did you hear that ordinary valves are a way of controlling heat? " Eh?! Are you suggesting that you cannot control the output of a rad with manual valves?

Sorry, best, I think that is also misleading. Whichever room has the room stat fitted should have 'manual' valves fitted and not a TRV. Yes? The next step - when balancing the whole house's system - is to tweak the lockshields to achieve the desired temp drop across each rad. Then, with all the other rads controlled by their TRVs set to each desired position, the 'room stat' location will almost certainly require the manual valve to also be tweaked so that it gives out the correct heat for that room, relative to the heats in the other rooms.

To do this you have to - gasp - adjust the manual valve.

(Sorry - becoming flippant... )

It'll be interesting to see what response BLB gets. To try and suggest to her - as some have done - that the lounge is simply the 'wrong' place to have the room stat is, I believe, misleading. There are pros and cons for any location (with the hall, it's that the rest of your house goes on fire if the JWs keep you chatting too long by the front door).

If the two rads in BLB's lounge are of different sizes, then I would be interested to know how well her house would behave if she shut off the smaller one completely. If this resolves the problem and her lounge is still warmed through evenly without this second rad, she could then even look at having it removed and freeing up some wall space.

I'd also like to know what would happen if she simply turned down both rads.

There is a degree of logic to your statements however there is nothing misleading about what best has said. I think the point with this whole issue is that the lady has bought a new house and it’s not been designed or set up correctly. Why would you settle for a workaround. There are simply too many factors which make the lounge a poor choice for the thermostat, definitely more than putting the stat in the coldest point of the house so that it can work effectively. I can’t see your logic in trying to cool one room in order to warm others

 

[Best]

DevsAd, too many points to reply to, but just want to repeat a few points.
The lounge radiator won't need the wheelhead (if one fitted) valve tweaked once the balancing of the system is done. It is a permanent on rad while a room stat remains in that room.
The balancing of rads doesn't alter the heat so much as the rate of heat up of rads, although if not balanced properly, a system will have some rads not heating properly, or barely at all, I agree.
Turning an ordinary valve down will only limit the heat of a rad if the flow is nearly off. I used to do same with my bedroom rad to JUST allow some heat through to keep chill of room in mild winter, as I don't like much heat there. (That was until I put TRVs on.) But in practice this is useless and weather will alter the room heat loss need.
So what I am saying is you can't expect the home owner to be a human TRV and be tweaking their lounge rad valve every day, several times a day to keep a desired temperature in that room that will then keep room stat from turning off that zone.
The hot tap filling a basin with very hot water but achieving luke warm water, only works if the tap is just dripping.

 

[DevsAd]

And if the rad in the coldest part of the house is also too 'powerful'?! You replace it with a smaller one rather than turn it down?

Every single rad in every single room of that house should be capable of getting that room 'toasty'. Ok, that ain't the scientific term, but by that I mean to a higher temp than you would usually wish to maintain it at on a day-to-day basis; they need to get their rooms up to temp in a reasonably quick time. When they get their rooms up to the required temp, they shut down, usually by the fitted TRVs.

In a sense, all the rads in all the rooms have that 'over' capacity. They are all more powerful than is required to simply maintain the temp at the normal level; they need that extra reserve not to maintain the desired temp, but to get the room quickly up there in the first place - that needs extra capacity. That extra capacity is then controlled - with TRVs in most rooms.

The rad where the room stat is located - and it matters not a jot which room that is - also requires this 'controlling' so that it releases it's heat at the correct rate to get that room up to temp allowing adequate time for all the other rooms to do so too. And that is done by the fitted manual valve.

(That is after all the rads have been balanced by using the temp-drop (or modern equivalent) method.)

There seems to be a suggestion on here that only rads with TRVs can be controlled for output.

Is it really nuts for me to suggest that a rad with manual valves cannot be turned down a bit?!

 

[DevsAd]

DevsAd, too many points to reply to, but just want to repeat a few points.
The lounge radiator won't need the wheelhead (if one fitted) valve tweaked once the balancing of the system is done. It is a permanent on rad while a room stat remains in that room.
The balancing of rads doesn't alter the heat so much as the rate of heat up of rads, although if not balanced properly, a system will have some rads not heating properly, or barely at all, I agree.
Turning an ordinary valve down will only limit the heat of a rad if the flow is nearly off. I used to do same with my bedroom rad to JUST allow some heat through to keep chill of room in mild winter, as I don't like much heat there. (That was until I put TRVs on.) But in practice this is useless and weather will alter the room heat loss need.
So what I am saying is you can't expect the home owner to be a human TRV and be tweaking their lounge rad valve every day, several times a day to keep a desired temperature in that room that will then keep room stat from turning off that zone.
The hot tap filling a basin with very hot water but achieving luke warm water, only works if the tap is just dripping.

Cheers, Best - and thank for your patience .

I do get what you are saying - honestly.

I wouldn't expect the householder to have to keep readjusting that manual valve at all; once set - so that the 'oversized' rad behaves like a 'normal'-sized one - it's leave it alone.

There must surely be some adjustment on that wheelhead so that it reduces the output to a more suitable level without it having to be nearly off?

Really - are you and your colleagues telling me that the rads they fit in the 'room stat' location are left with their wheelheads fully open, and that happens to be perfect?!

 

[Riley]

No but the point is I bet most of us size our radiators correctly

 

[DevsAd]

Fair do's, Riley

 

[Darren Jackson]

But there will not be a wheelhead on the radiator to adjust. Just locksheilds. So what you suggest means BLB will have to get her tools out and remove the shield then adjust the valve with a spanner every day to match the required temperature of that particular day.

 

[Best]

Cheers, Best - and thank for your patience .

I do get what you are saying - honestly.

I wouldn't expect the householder to have to keep readjusting that manual valve at all; once set - so that the 'oversized' rad behaves like a 'normal'-sized one - it's leave it alone.

There must surely be some adjustment on that wheelhead so that it reduces the output to a more suitable level without it having to be nearly off?

Really - are you and your colleagues telling me that the rads they fit in the 'room stat' location are left with their wheelheads fully open, and that happens to be perfect?!

You can't set a manual rad valve to give an appropriate necessary output, as this will vary due mainly to weather and other factors. You would just have a reduced permanent output and probably a noisy flow through valve.
And, Yes to rads in room stat zones having their wheelhead (or lockshield valve) open totally or fairly full, but the balancing lockshield balanced just like all other rads.
Why not? After all the lounge in this case should have a radiator of a size that is capable of bringing that room up to 25 degrees on a day that outside temperature is well below zero. If that radiator is not silly oversized, then the room stat should be cutting off in theory when the other radiators have rooms approximately up to temperature. On a warmer day the room will come up to heat quickly but so will other rooms and the room stat will shut off the zone, so no need to touch the manual rad valve.
But that is one flaw in having the room stat in the lounge, because that rad is critical to the rest of system. A hall is less important for exact heat requirements and can have a room stat in it which can very easily be tweaked until you achieve perfect shut off temperature point for boiler, but yet have every other room rad on that zone with Trv control.

 

[DevsAd]

Many thanks, gents - I get it now

 

[TonyC]

Moving the room stat out of the lounge will not fix the problem, the lounge will still be hot when the other rooms are warm. If there is no problem with the systems flow and it is balanced correctly there is a system design fault, either lounge radiators are over sized or other rooms are under sized. Trvs give the occupier the capacity to have rooms colder than the room stat setting, or easily turn rads off, up or down. Unfortunately many installers put any size rad in put a TRV on it and think that's system design.