Trouble with single pipe system

[Single pipe Sean]

Hi Everyone, I’m new to this site so not quite sure how it all works or if this is even in the right place but here goes.

I live in a large property that used to be one of the training centers for Lucas Engineering. However it has since been converted back to a residential dwelling.
The house has a single pipe system with very large pipe work and 42, 4 column cast iron ideal radiators. We used to have an old ideal floor mount boiler (I think 70kw). We have since upgraded it to a vailliant ecotec 64kw and made it a pressurized system along with a 80l expansion vessel.
We are having problems maintaining the right pressure.
When the heating is off the boiler reads 1bar, the second it turns on and the big external pump kicks in it jumps to 1.5bar and stays there. When left at this the majority of the radiators work fine but around 8 or 10 don’t come on until the pressure is increased to around 1.8bar at the boiler. And we seem to have to top this up most days. The plumbers who installed the new boiler just don’t want to know and won’t come back, we’ve had a couple other people out but no one seems to know much about this type of system.
There seems to be no sign of leaks as most of the pipe work is surface mounted.
Could the expansion vessel pressure need to be increased?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

 

[Single pipe Sean]

Thanks, just trying to get a feel for your system contents, based on that and assuming a 70/60C flow/return temp.
The 80 litre E.vessel with a pre charge pressure of 0.5 bar and a filling pressure of 1.0 bar (reserve of 20 litres) with a final pressure of 1.7 bar would mean a system contents of 850 litres. A pre charge pressure is 1.0 bar (no reserve) would mean a system contents of 1125 Litres.

Evening John,
The expansion vessel is at 2.1bar,
What does this mean?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Evening John,
The expansion vessel is at 2.1bar,
What does this mean?

Is that what the expansion vessel was charged at with no load eg empty ?

 

[John.g]

It should mean that the expansion vessel is mounted 4M below whatever gauge you are reading now, what was the E.vessel pressure cold?

 

[Single pipe Sean]

Is that what the expansion vessel was charged at with no load eg empty ?

Is that what the expansion vessel was charged at with no load eg empty ?

Hi it’s a boss 80l expansion vessel factory set to 2bar which I increased to 2.1.
Thanks
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It should mean that the expansion vessel is mounted 4M below whatever gauge you are reading now, what was the E.vessel pressure cold?

Hi,
When cold boiler reads 1 Bar, there’s no gauge on the expansion vessel itself but when checked with compressor reads 2.1.
As soon as boiler fires up I get 1.5bar which after about 2 hours reaches 1.7 and remains there.

 

[John.g]

Ok, where is the E.vessel located in relation to the boiler gauge?, ie how far above or below it?.

 

[Single pipe Sean]

Ok, where is the E.vessel located in relation to the boiler gauge?, ie how far above or below it?.

It’s right next to it probably a foot or 50cm below it if that.
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It’s right next to it probably a foot or 50cm below it if that.

Update,
The heating has just turned off after being on for 5 hours, so main external pump is off and the final pressure reading on boiler is 2 bar.

 

[John.g]

Well if that 2.1 bar reading is accurate and if the boiler reading is accurate at 1.0 bar cold, it should mean that as soon as the system water starts heating up then the boiler pressure should rise almost instantly to 2.1 bar except that there is loads of air in your system and that is acting as a E.vessel. To check the pre charge pressure properly you really need to do it with the system fully drained (if you havn't got a isol valve on its water side.) Its also possible that there is a blockage in the pipe between the E.vessel and the boiler but the boiler PRV should operate in that case (except the system has air in it).

However if your system is operating OK maybe leave it be for the time being anyway.

You said the pressure rises eventually to 1.7 bar with boiler on and up to temperature, have you ever noticed what it reads if the boiler and circulating pump was off with a hot system?.

 

[SJB060685]

John correct me if I'm wrong but if the vessel pre charge is 2.1 bar then before it will accumulate any expansion the pressure of the water at that part of the system must be greater?

 

[John.g]

That's correct, the E.vessel diaphragm will be up against the water end so the system pressure will have to rise and exceed 2.1 bar before the e.vessel can accomodate any expanded water, if the pre charge pressure was 3 bar then the boiler PRV would lift almost immediately on boiler start up.
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Saw your update, thanks.

 

[Chrisjones.7976]

Hi Everyone, I’m new to this site so not quite sure how it all works or if this is even in the right place but here goes.

I live in a large property that used to be one of the training centers for Lucas Engineering. However it has since been converted back to a residential dwelling.
The house has a single pipe system with very large pipe work and 42, 4 column cast iron ideal radiators. We used to have an old ideal floor mount boiler (I think 70kw). We have since upgraded it to a vailliant ecotec 64kw and made it a pressurized system along with a 80l expansion vessel.
We are having problems maintaining the right pressure.
When the heating is off the boiler reads 1bar, the second it turns on and the big external pump kicks in it jumps to 1.5bar and stays there. When left at this the majority of the radiators work fine but around 8 or 10 don’t come on until the pressure is increased to around 1.8bar at the boiler. And we seem to have to top this up most days. The plumbers who installed the new boiler just don’t want to know and won’t come back, we’ve had a couple other people out but no one seems to know much about this type of system.
There seems to be no sign of leaks as most of the pipe work is surface mounted.
Could the expansion vessel pressure need to be increased?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

A lot of these old single pipe systems worked on gravity, basically hot water rises & cold water falls & naturally tended to run in one direction. Is your pump pushing it the same way?, Is the single pipe under the cold radiators hot? If it is it's got a blockage in the radiator or valves.