Unvented Cylinders

[Ermintrude]

No but I do put a doc on cold at base of cyl started to tee a 15mm branch on the d2 so can put hose on to drain down. Don't like the megaflow suggestion of a rigid connection between cold and discharge due to diffrent categories of water and the fact check valve won't work very well under grav

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

Or open the lowest hot tap as the megaflo suggests.
When you g3 guys fit unvented do you put an issolater in before the exp vessels assuming its not also issolating the prv? Would make checking precharge easier.

Opening the lowest hot tap doesn't drain the cylinder past the Tpr, if you want to re charge the air bubble you need to drop the water level below this!

yeah I know you can let it out the Tpr like they suggest but if you have 48 flats to service and they all are Megaflows it's the fastest way to annoy everyone one the ground floor, it would be a better idea to use a hose and maybe put it into the w/c.

putting an isolating valve between an unvented cylinder and the expansion vessel would be a very dangerous thing to do!

 

[solutions]

Opening the lowest hot tap doesn't drain the cylinder past the Tpr, if you want to re charge the air bubble you need to drop the water level below this!

yeah I know you can let it out the Tpr like they suggest but if you have 48 flats to service and they all are Megaflows it's the fastest way to annoy everyone one the ground floor, it would be a better idea to use a hose and maybe put it into the w/c.

putting an isolating valve between an unvented cylinder and the expansion vessel would be a very dangerous thing to do!

I wonder why megaflo stipulate that is how the airgap is recharged.

Surely issolating the expv is no more dangerous than the expv pinholing or loosing charge and then only if someone leaves it issolated when system is in use. Like I said not talking about isolating the prv from releasing system pressure if needed.

 

[kay-jay]

I wonder why megaflo stipulate that is how the airgap is recharged.

Surely issolating the expv is no more dangerous than the expv pinholing or loosing charge and then only if someone leaves it issolated when system is in use. Like I said not talking about isolating the prv from releasing system pressure if needed.

Sounds lime you are confusing two systems. Megaflo have internal air bubble which requires draining to a point that can let air in before it is refilled and re establishes the air gap.

Exp vessels are external and the isolation is a no no for obvious reasons. Why would you want to isolate it? Turn off the stop tap open cold taps upstairs and downstairs takes two mins and then the exp vessel can be changed

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I wonder why megaflo stipulate that is how the airgap is recharged.

Surely issolating the expv is no more dangerous than the expv pinholing or loosing charge and then only if someone leaves it issolated when system is in use. Like I said not talking about isolating the prv from releasing system pressure if needed.

they don't, isolate unit, open lowest hot tap (to drop pressure) then hold open tprv until water stops running through valve, close and turn unit back on.

Doesn't mater mate your not allowed to do it on unvented hot water, what if the PRV was capped or non functioning and someone has isolated the expansion vessel?

 

[solutions]

Sounds lime you are confusing two systems. Megaflo have internal air bubble which requires draining to a point that can let air in before it is refilled and re establishes the air gap.

Exp vessels are external and the isolation is a no no for obvious reasons. Why would you want to isolate it? Turn off the stop tap open cold taps upstairs and downstairs takes two mins and then the exp vessel can be changed

No,I know the difference. Just remebered the recharge steps for the megaflo completely wrong.
As I am not g3 I dont deal with that stuff regularly and obviously missunderstood what I read on the side of the cylinder. So fitting an isolation valve between the system and the expvessel is against the regs. That is good to know if I see it again I will know to advise it be corrected by appropriately certified peeps.

 

[kay-jay]

No,I know the difference. Just remebered the recharge steps for the megaflo completely wrong.
As I am not g3 I dont deal with that stuff regularly and obviously missunderstood what I read on the side of the cylinder. So fitting an isolation valve between the system and the expvessel is against the regs. That is good to know if I see it again I will know to advise it be corrected by appropriately certified peeps.

Get yourself on a course. Not expensive really and can be a good earner even if its only the odd service and remedying the odd fault its still worth it. And then you have another side to your business which you can develop.

 

[Chris F]

Yep that's why I have done it too. My course was expensive but it wad the only one i could get on short notice it was 200 notes

 

[solutions]

Yes planning too just havent decided as yet who to do it with. Local center seems overpriced.

 

[Ch4 plumbing]

I paid £250 now I'm feeling royally taken for a ride!

its a good way to add strings to the bow.

 

[Chris F]

Well that was relatively easy All done and ready to rumble.

 

[Best]

Smart move to do it! Means also another line of words to your qualifications, so well worth the effort. G3 ticket is a bit of a rip off, but a couple of hundred pounds is very easy recouped with the odd new unvented unit job & all the servicing & repair jobs.
Why they can't just issue a book (for a reasonable cost) of regulations & instructions on how to service & install unvented units? That would be so much better for to refer to.
Oil & Gas are the same - why not just do largely practical training based largely on safety, rather than days of paperwork?
It creates employment for these training people & is a tax on plumbers, is the truth.

 

[chris watkins]

Smart move to do it! Means also another line of words to your qualifications, so well worth the effort. G3 ticket is a bit of a rip off, but a couple of hundred pounds is very easy recouped with the odd new unvented unit job & all the servicing & repair jobs.
Why they can't just issue a book (for a reasonable cost) of regulations & instructions on how to service & install unvented units? That would be so much better for to refer to.
Oil & Gas are the same - why not just do largely practical training based largely on safety, rather than days of paperwork?
It creates employment for these training people & is a tax on plumbers, is the truth.

Your question Best, is easily answered the books you talk about are the Manufaturers Instructions & / or the training manuals that accompany the courses.
The fatal flaw in your plans for a non-assessment world is that plumbers & heating engineers will not read information given to them, it is the old throw the MI's on the ground as soon as the new boiler comes out of the box, walk all over it until it comes to turning on said boiler & then only picking them up & look at picture's when the thing don't work !!!!

And don't tell me you lot don't do that cos I see it day in day out.

I will say again if you have competed your Part G in half a day you have gone to the wrong training (& assessment) center. Again you want to complain about the quality & value but you don't want to spend any time or money completing them.

You do make me laugh, only in this industry.

 

[Best]

Your question Best, is easily answered the books you talk about are the Manufaturers Instructions & / or the training manuals that accompany the courses.
The fatal flaw in your plans for a non-assessment world is that plumbers & heating engineers will not read information given to them, it is the old throw the MI's on the ground as soon as the new boiler comes out of the box, walk all over it until it comes to turning on said boiler & then only picking them up & look at picture's when the thing don't work !!!!


And don't tell me you lot don't do that cos I see it day in day out.


I will say again if you have competed your Part G in half a day you have gone to the wrong training (& assessment) center. Again you want to complain about the quality & value but you don't want to spend any time or money completing them.


You do make me laugh, only in this industry.

I do largely agree with you Chris, but the MIs that you mention that come with unvented units, while good, are not obviously detailed enough usually for all circumstances - like for all discharge possibilities.
Nor are the MIs much good for a beginner, just qualified, as advisable pipework runs etc might be unclear.
As to the training manual, - last I saw it was in the training centre! Fat lot of good that is if I come across something on a job I am unsure meets regs or not! That is why I say, we need the regs in a book & in simple form to refer to, even if we pay extra for it.
You are right about what most of us would do if no training, - probably a brief read of MIs or regs at most. I try to read instructions that comes with anything, as you nearly always learn something, but must admit we all have left the instructions on the floor at times. Very good point! :smile:
Training is needed but IMO it should be only part of what is required & needs to actually teach things to us, - not just give out questions.
My G3 has been a half day & I learn mainly only what I read tbh.
It would help a lot if each job you do could at random perhaps be accessed by someone that actually knew the job and you risked loosing your card if you were repeatedly doing anything seriously wrong.
By that I mean, we all do a driving test in UK, but if we drive dangerously, we can & should loose the licence. I bet driving would be a lot worse on roads if there were no laws enforceable by the police. But we can have days of correct expert training at plumbing courses & then take our card & "throw" the work in carelessly anyhow. If there is nobody coming behind us to police our work, then rules will be broken by some.
That's my rant over! :smile:

 

[chris watkins]

Nor are the MIs much good for a beginner, just qualified, as advisable pipework runs etc might be unclear.
As to the training manual, - last I saw it was in the training centre! Fat lot of good that is if I come across something on a job I am unsure meets regs or not! That is why I say, we need the regs in a book & in simple form to refer to, even if we pay extra for it.
You are right about what most of us would do if no training, - probably a brief read of MIs or regs at most. I try to read instructions that comes with anything, as you nearly always learn something, but must admit we all have left the instructions on the floor at times. Very good point! :smile:
Training is needed but IMO it should be only part of what is required & needs to actually teach things to us, - not just give out questions.
My G3 has been a half day & I learn mainly only what I read tbh.
It would help a lot if each job you do could at random perhaps be accessed by someone that actually knew the job and you risked loosing your card if you were repeatedly doing anything seriously wrong.
By that I mean, we all do a driving test in UK, but if we drive dangerously, we can & should loose the licence. I bet driving would be a lot worse on roads if there were no laws enforceable by the police. But we can have days of correct expert training at plumbing courses & then take our card & "throw" the work in carelessly anyhow. If there is nobody coming behind us to police our work, then rules will be broken by some.
That's my rant over! :smile:

I absolutely & totally 100% agree, if only it could be so.

I have worked hard over the years to learn my craft & it irks me when I see others who hold a piece of paper that says they are the same as me when their work says not.
As you say it is all for the want of an effective policeman so they are allowed to carry on & on.

Domestic Vented and Unvented Hot Water Storage Systems | BPEC
This is the one you get if you come to us, its not perfect but its not at all bad (the price also includes certification) You get this sent out to your house a minimum of a week before you come see me, it has a few self testing questions after each bit of study. So by the time you come to do the training you know the basics & maybe have a few questions on bit you didn't understand. What I shouldn't waste time on is teaching how to calculate the D2 for instants.

I always work hard during these days to pass on as much of my hard earned knowledge & experience as time permits (8.30 to 4 is the norm) & not just what is required to pass the exam.
I sometime question if I am wasting my time when at the beginning of the day I ask how many have looked at the training manual let alone read it, I am lucky if its one or two out of the group, still I have to look at it as there loss not mine & plough on.

 

[Chris F]

My course was supposed to be a day but as I had read the book inside and out, worked with a guy 5 years ago who did a lot of unvented in new builds I was confident in what I alreadt knew. Got 2 questions wrong on my first attempt but I opted to sit the paper at 8 am so hadn't fully woke up. I did my unvented in my level 3 8 years back to get my tech cert but due to some personal issues I never sat the exam. My brother has his too but as he has a council job he never touches them.
I found it all to be common sense like the d2 terminating into a peice of abs plastic, minimum distances to short ,non visible tundish, immersions wired in incorrectly, incorrectly sized pipework.
I think if people actually read the books they would do ok, but no point going in there green, and to be fair the center didn't even check if I was a qualified plumber which I thought was strange. But needs must and I needed to sit it before October, but I know I would have passed it regardless of where I sat it.

 

[chris watkins]

How can a centre set the test at 8am before any training has taken place, don't understand Chris ????

 

[Chris F]

Good question mate ;-)Basically when I went in and said I wanted to do it he said he had an opening on Monday as he had one guy in doing his resits I then explained I had never sat the exam laughed and said give me the book and the g3 I'll come in and just sit the paper and see how I get on, I told him I already knew my way around one practically and if I fail I fail. He laughed and basically said "it's your money" so last Wednesday I got the book , read it cover to cover like I did with my gas, sat the upper plumber online test. Went in this morning and breezed it.
Like I said, I had installed them in college and helped install a load on site so I was confident I would pass as in essence I did my training on site and at college.
So it was the theory really.

 

[chris watkins]

Fair-do's, not what I would recommend but if you have done enough of them before.

 

[Chris F]

Fair-do's, not what I would recommend but if you have done enough of them before.

Yeah I agree mate, its not the usual route but I was confident I would pass. I'm the kind of guy who likes to KNOW not guess, if I felt I needed the training I definatley would have waited and done it. Hence since doing my gas I try and do every course I can, I read books, baxi faultfinding, Mr combi etc, i want to be the first time fix man not the phone a friend from the van man

 

[lame plumber]

phoning a friend is cheaper and achieves better results than phoning a tech line

 

[Chris F]

@lame plumber true that is mate