Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x 3

[pintvan]

We have an Ideal ICOS HE24 (Same model as the Isar)

My Installation was carried out by Iguana under the Warm Front Scheme. It was to replace a 13 year old boiler that was deemed inefficient. I stated that the pressure of the Hot water was poor, so the surveyor suggested that we move the boiler out of the kitchen into the bathroom upstairs and have the cold water tank in the loft, so we paid the approx. £350 excess.

The boiler since has given us no end of problems and we have had engineers here because of gas throttling and air locks, constant leaks, washing machine noises, loud knocking. EagaHeat then said that the radiators throughout the house had to be replaced as they were rusting and the valves were the old type and that they were all end of life. They tried to fix some of the problems and said that they couldn’t. In October 2012 boiler stopped working completely and the Home Insurance company came out and replaced the electrics and electronics and it worked for a few hours. The next time the engineer said that there was an issue and with the circulation and the insurance company insisted on a power flush. It was noticed that the boiler was leaking lots of water, but insurance company insisted on a power flush. We did this and replaced the radiators (approx. £2000).
Insurance company then confirmed heat exchanger and that it was beyond economical repair. Warmfront Advisor also said beyond economical repair, so complete reinstall in April/May at £3000-£4000
Now it is 3 months without heating (except plug ins and a gas heater, hot water has to be done using pots and buckets)
Three vulnerable (registered disabled) people in house and I get working tax credits. In desperation in the sub-zero snowy temperatures, I managed to get the boiler operational very occasionally by forcing the boiler to light by disconnecting the sensors and trial and error. When it does work, it billows steam through the vent and the condensate pipes, but this is less dangerous than leaving the Gas fire (CO?)on all night as is necessary as we have 9" solid walls and getting burns from boiling water on the stove.
Ideal DECC and Carillion have all been aware in the last few weeks, but have ignored our requests to get the boiler inspected.
Did EAGA and Ideal are about a mile of each other in Newcastle work together to win the government deal and when Carillion bought them the staff tried to get their hands on the £60m pile of profits. How many vulnerable people and non-vulnerable people have been left in situations...this is the tip of the Iceberg I guess?
I did some quick research and found that they used a section of 15mm pipe in the flow return, so explains why the water heating got priority and the 15mm gas feed some 13m away from the meter caused the vibration when the Gas oven and stoves were all working.
Have tried the DECC and Green Deal. We desperately need to get the heating working for the health of the kids and my wife.
If anybody could also help with the pipe sizing I would appreciate it. The gas meter is 28mm goes 6m then is reduced to 22mm for 5m with three 90 degree bends and then T's off to the gas hob and a 15mm pipe some 6m to the to the boiler upstairs.
The 15mm pipe is used to join the returning radiator pipe in 22mm to the 22mm return feed to the boiler.
Thanks all for reading...sorry it is so long...Difficult to take a picture of this!

 

[gasmanrob]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

really sorry to hear this, sounds like youve had a rough deal. there isnt really much we can do to give you technical advice here but maybe one or two people may be able to reccomend routes to go down to gert your complaint resolved. you really need to have an indipendent gas safe fitter in by the sounds of it someone who has no ties with the warm front and can give an in partial review of the boiler and installation.

 

[lame plumber]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

you obviously need some additional help from citizens advice and talk to trading standards as well. try emailing watchdog with an accurate breakdown of the issues, bad press can help resolve the problem at times. but overall try and find a professional to come and look and advice on a way ahead you have too many issues here to be resolved on a forum, omho and you need proper practical advice and you really must stop messing with sensors they are there for your safety.

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

I pull out the gas sensor lead as it helps the boiler reset, then put it back. Yesterday with minus tempuratures throughout the day and night and even this process the boiler failed to light. It dropped to 13 degrees even with the plug in heater and I turned on the gas fire and left it on overnight which is more dangerous. Dont know what else to do.

 

[REDSAW]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

threaten the installer with and report to trading standards then go to cab.

do you rent or own?.

if you rent then call in the health authority for support.

you may also get an independent survey done but back it onto a possible rectification quote from an independant and pursue those works are done.
good luck

where are you?

ps. someones been screwed and someone needs to know about it!.

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

where do you live pintvan?

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

Hi Michael,

In Harrow, North West London

Thanks

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

We own the property. We have contacted the local authority to see if they can help, but things take so long. Will try Carillion again to at least review their work as I have had a letter from their complaints department.

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

unfortunately i cant travel that far however i suggest you follow redsaws advice and get an independant to have a look for you so you can approach them with facts.

Good luck.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

I am in ruislip HA4 , If you need help just call me tomorrow during the day on 07900 830 869 - Stan !

 

[vern]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

I am in ruislip HA4 , If you need help just call me tomorrow during the day on 07900 830 869 - Stan !

Nice one Stan......sounds like the work you have had done is to a very poor standard!

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

An update. I tried to reason with Carillion Warm Front to see if they wanted to inspect the installation so that we could get some speedy resolution as it has been below zero all week, but they were completely unhelpful and suggested that I pay for an independent plumber to write an investigative report. He implied that the insurance companies that had taken over may have modified the installation. I felt that this was a brush off of all responsibility and did a bit of research and found that the Chartered Institute (CIPHE) do a report that could stand up in court, but their ballpark figure is around £1200. In the meantime, I would appreciate the help of you guys (and gals) on your comments on the installation. Please try to be as impartial as possible and point out like the 15mm gas pipe has 5 soldered joints when surely a few slight bends are easier, better and much much safer? Also please say if you are Gas Safe and time in the profession if possible. I will respect your anonymity.
Its my first video, so forgive the pauses. I should have made it shorter, but the start and the end bits show the evidence.
My view being a techie is that it is probable that this install isnt just botched up, but engineered to ensure that the installers get on-going work and to ensure that typical warm front customers encounter similar problems and feel that they should have to continually renew their policies.

Now I see why the boiler and motor was set to maximum and why the installer said that this was the most efficient and said that the installation doesnt include the balancing, but that I should do that myself. The short section of 15mm pipe connecting the 22mm return flow to the boiler 22mm pipes I think explains all the problems that we encountered. It fully explains why the radiators get cold fast when the water is also being heated as this robs most of the heat as well as the constant leaks throughout the system, noise, circulation problems.
I was so concerned on the gas safety installation that yesterday I called Transco to check as I had previoulsy smelled gas Thankfully he said that it not leaking and the gas was probably from the disjointed condensate pipe whilst the boiler was trying to fire up.

I can't see why the other EAGA engineers who came in the 10 occassions over the years hadnt picked it up on the 22mm to 15mm to 22mm, perhaps that is the way they work. I will also escalate this as this could be the tip the iceberg as most vulnerable people may not even know that their warm front installation may be intentionally set to fail......unless this is an installer that has mental issues? I shall nonetheless report it to DECC and my MP to escalate. Thanks in advance of the comments. Glad there is a forum like this that can help.[VIDEO]An update. I tried to reason with Carillion Warm Front to see if they wanted to inspect the installation so that we could get some speedy resolution as it has been below zero all week, but they were completely unhelpful and suggested that I pay for an independent plumber to write an investigative report. He implied that the insurance companies that had taken over may have modified the installation. I felt that this was a brush off of all responsibility. I did a bit of research and found that the Chartered Institute (CIPHE) do a report that could stand up in court, but their ballpark figure is around £1200. I can'tbcompletely ruled this out and would appreciate the help of you guys (and gals) on your comments on the installation. Please try to be as impartial as possible and point out like the 15mm gas pipe has 5 soldered joints when surely a few slight bends are easier, better and much much safer? Also please say if you are Gas Safe and time in the profession if possible. I will respect your anonymity. Its my first video, so forgive the pauses. I should have made it shorter, but the start and the end bits show the evidence. It is probable that this install isnt just botched up, but engineered to ensure that the installers- Iguana get on-going work and ensure that typical warm front customers encounter similar problems and feel that they should have to continually renew their policies.  Now I see why the boiler and motor was set to maximum and why the installer said that this was the most efficient and said that the installation doesnt include the balancing, but that I should do that myself. The short section of 15mm pipe connecting the return flow to the boiler 22mm pipes I think explains all the problems that we encountered. It fully explains why the radiators get cold fast when the water is also being heated as this robs most of the heat. I was so concerned on the gas safety installation that yesterday I called Transco to check as I had previoulsy smelled gas Thankfully he said that it not leaking and the gas was probably from the disjointed condensate pipe whilst the boiler was trying to fire up.  I can't see why the other EAGA engineers who came in the 10 occassions over the years hadnt picked it up on the 22mm to 15mm to 22mm, perhaps that is the way they work. I will also escalate this as this could be the tip the iceberg as most vulnerable people may not even know that their warm front installation may be intentionally set to fail......unless this is an installer that has mental issues? I shall nonetheless report it to DECC and my MP to escalate. Thanks in advance of the comments.

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

[video=youtube;esDvqZjHEcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esDvqZjHEcc[/video]

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

morning pintvan just watched the video (hard to see parts as i am watching on a phone). Whilst it is allowed to go from 22-15-22 it is as you say common sense to not do this and inadvisable to do it the way it has been done in your system. This will cause a flow restriction as you say. As for the many soldered joints as oppose to bends this is simply engineer preference. My biggest concerns are the pump should not need to be on full (have they tested the pump) why havent they removed that 15mm leg on the return? and mostly the gas pipe has anyone done a gas pipe sizing (calculations to determine the correct sizes of pipe) Has anyone checked your flue gas analysis? Was this done with another gas appliance in operation. From what you have said the gas pipe is undersized and needs rectified as this will cause potential incomplete combustion meaning the boiler cant get as hot as necessary and would mean your boiler will be expelling a higher percentage of carbon monoxide than it should be.

I am gas safe and work for a large company doing installations.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

if CENTRAL HEATING was piped sized correctly in the first place + new rads even with 15mm gas pipe and boiler set on max house would have been toasted

+ it needs to have a gate valve or the cylinder return to balanced the system but all they have done is change to boiler so they should have charged for one fitted

power flush on old ch system pipes DOES not mean that they have cleaned the system , many times its imposible to clear the sludge and the next step is to repipe ch system which is you to cover not the" installer with mental issues "

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

thanks safegas i knew something was missing but couldn't think what it was. My company also makes us fit auto bypasses although i know not essential on y plan. I also noticed there are aavs but not necessarily in the highest points and no air seperator either which is advisable on newer installs.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

air separator is not need if cold fed and expansion are like 150mm from each other , aav on open vent are good thing if pump sucks air should there be not enough head ! but customers with old ch systems that have not been looked after for 10-15years and then they decide to go for new boiler and rads some times they will have to face the bill of repiping the central heating as system is not piped sized correct in the first place + I am sure that they have double the size of the rads which will not help ! Solution is , get someone to Survey the job and pay the £1200 fee and take them to court an see , when you finish call some one to put system correct
gas pipe been 15mm will not stop your house from been toasted

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

morning pintvan just watched the video (hard to see parts as i am watching on a phone). Whilst it is allowed to go from 22-15-22 it is as you say common sense to not do this and inadvisable to do it the way it has been done in your system. This will cause a flow restriction as you say. As for the many soldered joints as oppose to bends this is simply engineer preference. My biggest concerns are the pump should not need to be on full (have they tested the pump) why havent they removed that 15mm leg on the return? and mostly the gas pipe has anyone done a gas pipe sizing (calculations to determine the correct sizes of pipe) Has anyone checked your flue gas analysis? Was this done with another gas appliance in operation. From what you have said the gas pipe is undersized and needs rectified as this will cause potential incomplete combustion meaning the boiler cant get as hot as necessary and would mean your boiler will be expelling a higher percentage of carbon monoxide than it should be.

I am gas safe and work for a large company doing installations.

Thanks Michael for taking the time to view and respond.
1. The 15mm return flow was not there in the first place as there was a floorboard there. I guess it was to connect the 22mm original return flow under the floorboard (when the boiler was originally in the kitchen) but then to do this in 15mm and turn the pump and boiler up to maximum and make excuses that the radiators dont respond before the installation as the boiler was relocated upstairs borders on madness.
2. During the intervening years when the bottle vents failed and leaked and I asked if the pump on maximum was the cause. An EAGA project manager and various "experts" in their field investigated all the inherent problems, they all stated that the pump should be on maximum to take away the heat from the boiler ASAP.
3. As for the gas pipe sizing, the installer said that he may have to run the gas pipe from the meter around the outside wall, when I pointed out that the supply to the gas stove and oven was 22mm running directly below and I would remove the base unit shelves so that he could easily access this. He instead extended the 15mm gas pipe from the original boiler.
4. The gas flue analysis was done, but never with all the gas appliances as I was present all the time and tried to keep out the way as much as possible.
Part of the the problem is that EAGA know that that as we were having the installation done for virtually free, so I couldnt comment and complain.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

the 15 mm return is on your hw side and does not affect your central heating AT ALL , it is done as this reduces the flow of water to hot water cylinder

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

the flue gas analysis does not need to have all other appliances running however since you have identified the problem with the cooker, this should have been checked as can also cause your cooker to not burn correctly.

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

air separator is not need if cold fed and expansion are like 150mm from each other , aav on open vent are good thing if pump sucks air should there be not enough head ! but customers with old ch systems that have not been looked after for 10-15years and then they decide to go for new boiler and rads some times they will have to face the bill of repiping the central heating as system is not piped sized correct in the first place + I am sure that they have double the size of the rads which will not help ! Solution is , get someone to Survey the job and pay the £1200 fee and take them to court an see , when you finish call some one to put system correct
gas pipe been 15mm will not stop your house from been toasted

Definitely agree that I should have kept the old boiler and the old pipework. It worked great and was done by a local plumber..so what if I saved £100 a year on a more efficient system.
If it was a straight agreement with T&C's to an installation company then I wouldnt hesitate, but as the Government(DECC)/EAGA/EAGAHEAT/WARMFRONT/IGUANA/CARILLION are involved, I can see potentially see the ball being kicked around for months or years and nobody taking responsibility.
At least the weather has improved!

 

[Dotty]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

You need to get an independent inspection. I doubt very much it'd cost £1,200.

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

the flue gas analysis does not need to have all other appliances running however since you have identified the problem with the cooker, this should have been checked as can also cause your cooker to not burn correctly.

Thanks Michael,

On very cold days, we had no choice but to supplement the heating with the gas fire in the living room and when using all the stoves the boiler vibrated, so we tried our best not to use them together, but didnt know that this could cause problems with buring correctly, but definitely see your point.
As a precaution and with small kids, I have always had multiple CO detectors.

 

[michael c]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

my best advice at this point would be to get someone like safe gas install out to have a look. He will hopefully be able to point you in the direction of the problem before you spend 1200 for an independant survey. These things can sometimes be so simple people simply miss them. I have attended a property before with similar issues and it was just the cold feed and expansion pipes were the wrong way round. Customer had 2 full teams inspect and not find a fault then my co-worker saw it straight away. Give safe gas a go at it

 

[pintvan]

Re: Warm Front botched up install. Ideal Icos broken now for 3 months - vulnerable x

You need to get an independent inspection. I doubt very much it'd cost £1,200.

There are 7 registered CIPHE's in the UK. The local one was the cheapest at around £1000, others have to add in travel expenses, etc. They have to stand up in court, otherwise the Judge will throw out the case.