What did i do wrong?

[Luggsey]

So, first plumbing job in years, bought solder, flux and MAP gas as shown.
15mm copper pipe, shined up, fluxed, absolute failure!
I'm a sparks by trade and solder a lot but not with a flame.
Am I right to assume map is far to hot for an amateur to work with, I cooked the pipe!
Advice where I'm going wrong please, I cant afford a plumber!
Cheers.
Paul.
[automerge]1587827746[/automerge]

So, first plumbing job in years, bought solder, flux and MAP gas as shown.
15mm copper pipe, shined up, fluxed, absolute failure!
I'm a sparks by trade and solder a lot but not with a flame.
Am I right to assume map is far to hot for an amateur to work with, I cooked the pipe!
Advice where I'm going wrong please, I cant afford a plumber!
Cheers.
Paul.

As a follow up, these bits are for a shower mixer, can I use JG speedfit for the link to the shower head with the supplied compression fitting or must I use a plastic fitting?

 

[king of pipes]

Luggsey dont use plastic to connect the shower up remember once its covered over your screwed if it leaks and looking at that first attempt your 50 50 at best bud sorry to p_ss on your parade but i wouldnt want ya to have failures down the line 😂. Its really not that difficult to do in copper just add a few more noggings where you can screw a few brackets to, do the bracketing first clip ya copper pipes in they are easily removed for measuring a kick or set i have added a few pictures below of ones i have done how not to do aswell soldering is something that comes with practice and you really dont need loads of flux or heat clean the pipe with a cleaning pad if using brand new fitting theres no need to clean inside them , the flux only goes on the pipe a light smear is all thats needed and twist the fitting on to the pipe as you push it on swipe away the excess flux with a cloth apply a gentle heat and dab the solder on the joint when its hot enough you will see the solder run and be sucked into the joint (capillary action) always wipe the joint to clean off any runs and work tidy let it cool naturally then shine up with the cleaning pad.
[automerge]1587891583[/automerge]
Plenty of tips and how to do it on you tube bud

 

[Luggsey]

Are you cleaning both the fitting and the tube as for flux just a light coat all the way round the tube is more than enough

Yep, shining them up but maybe I need to shine the pipe more outside the fitting.
I'll get there with help!

Luggsey dont use plastic to connect the shower up remember once its covered over your screwed if it leaks and looking at that first attempt your 50 50 at best bud sorry to p_ss on your parade but i wouldnt want ya to have failures down the line 😂. Its really not that difficult to do in copper just add a few more noggings where you can screw a few brackets to, do the bracketing first clip ya copper pipes in they are easily removed for measuring a kick or set i have added a few pictures below of ones i have done how not to do aswell soldering is something that comes with practice and you really dont need loads of flux or heat clean the pipe with a cleaning pad if using brand new fitting theres no need to clean inside them , the flux only goes on the pipe a light smear is all thats needed and twist the fitting on to the pipe as you push it on swipe away the excess flux with a cloth apply a gentle heat and dab the solder on the joint when its hot enough you will see the solder run and be sucked into the joint (capillary action) always wipe the joint to clean off any runs and work tidy let it cool naturally then shine up with the cleaning pad.
[automerge]1587891583[/automerge]
Plenty of tips and how to do it on you tube bud

Cheers, I can take criticism ok, that's what I need to help me improve things.
I spent the last half hour before dark bending up a bit of copper to go direct to the shower head without joins so that's the way I will do the rest of the showers.
I have three more showers to do so lots to learn!
I have plumbed a house in plastic before and found it a stress free experience, i know most plumbers frown on plastic, preferring copper, each to their own ability I suppose.
Paul.

 

[king of pipes]

We will help you out where we can mate but please change those tap connectors they are compression fittings on the shower valve and Just need a short section of copper a nut and olive tiny smear of paste assemble and tighten you can then adapt to plastic with the appropriate fitting . Regards kop

 

[Mrb]

this one is definitely my favourite

 

[Luggsey]

Luggsey dont use plastic to connect the shower up remember once its covered over your screwed if it leaks and looking at that first attempt your 50 50 at best bud sorry to p_ss on your parade but i wouldnt want ya to have failures down the line 😂. Its really not that difficult to do in copper just add a few more noggings where you can screw a few brackets to, do the bracketing first clip ya copper pipes in they are easily removed for measuring a kick or set i have added a few pictures below of ones i have done how not to do aswell soldering is something that comes with practice and you really dont need loads of flux or heat clean the pipe with a cleaning pad if using brand new fitting theres no need to clean inside them , the flux only goes on the pipe a light smear is all thats needed and twist the fitting on to the pipe as you push it on swipe away the excess flux with a cloth apply a gentle heat and dab the solder on the joint when its hot enough you will see the solder run and be sucked into the joint (capillary action) always wipe the joint to clean off any runs and work tidy let it cool naturally then shine up with the cleaning pad.
[automerge]1587891583[/automerge]
Plenty of tips and how to do it on you tube bud

I had a rethink and used copper, looks better to me!

 

[king of pipes]

View attachment 43566

this one is definitely my favourite

Before and after pictures there bud surprising what you find hidden away they are the original scorch marks in both pictures . Kop
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View attachment 43566

this one is definitely my favourite

Before and after pictures there bud surprising what you find hidden away

 

[moonlight]

Will the isolation valves be accessible when you put up the plaster board?

 

[king of pipes]

Always a pain to fit isolation valves and access them but its a water regulation and must be done, in a new build I like to manifold everything that way every water outlet can have its own isolation valve and fewer fittings. Kop

 

[Luggsey]

Will the isolation valves be accessible when you put up the plaster board?

I was going to fit the plastic framed access panel to do that, trying to work it where I know furniture will be.
Kop if I used a manifold I thought it would leave many cold legs and I have set up a comfort pump so couldn't do it that way?

 

[king of pipes]

Why ? It's no different all your pipework will have water in , I think you mean dead legs bud ? not really a issue in a medium size house, a secondary pump can be fitted if you want this circulates hot water to the points of use in your home usually Via a timed pump but obviously it involves extra pipework. Regards kop

 

[SimonG]

No plastic on a secondary return.

 

[king of pipes]

No plastic on a secondary return.

That's a good point Simon 👍 there are ways of doing it but I am not going to complicate the post, as a medium sized family home with say 2 bathrooms , cloakroom , kitchen and utility room there's no need other than to avoid drawing amount of cold water to the point of use even this can be minimised with careful planning . All the best kop

 

[oz-plumber]

Why would you bother running from the breach to the shower head in copper when the rest of the system is in plastic?
It would be the only part of a plumbing system that is never under any real pressure.

 

[Luggsey]

Why would you bother running from the breach to the shower head in copper when the rest of the system is in plastic?
It would be the only part of a plumbing system that is never under any real pressure.

Simon please explain this to me, I'm a sparky!
The house is big, five bed, 150m2 ground floor, I obtained a bronze impeller pump to work off sensors in bathroom and en suites.
I don't know this reg about plastic on returns, can you please expand on that for me?
Thanks.
Paul.

 

[SimonG]

Now then Paul. All the plastic pipe manufacturers dont warranty their pipes for domestic hot water secondary returns. You need it in copper or mlcp (plastic with aluminium sheath inside).

 

[Luggsey]

Now then Paul. All the plastic pipe manufacturers dont warranty their pipes for domestic hot water secondary returns. You need it in copper or mlcp (plastic with aluminium sheath inside).

Ok are we talking about oxygen barrier like underfloor heating pipe?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Any plastic pipe isn’t suitable for permanent temp eg secondary return

this mlcp MLCP Multilayer Plumbing & Heating Pipe - https://www.bhiveunderfloor.co.uk/mlcp-multilayer-plumbing--heating-pipe-4-c.asp

or copper only

 

[Luggsey]

Any plastic pipe isn’t suitable for permanent temp eg secondary return

this mlcp MLCP Multilayer Plumbing & Heating Pipe - https://www.bhiveunderfloor.co.uk/mlcp-multilayer-plumbing--heating-pipe-4-c.asp

or copper only

I don't doubt you are correct, I just checked JG website...
What dosent make sense is you can use this pipe for central heating return?
I will give it some serious thought but I would keep the DHW temperature low and the return would only be in use for short periods as it's on sensors....
Hmmm.

 

[gmartine]

You need to use MLCP or copper because a secondary return is a continuously circulating HW system, in other words if you use plastic pipe because of the constant heat being absorbed it'll droop like you do after a beery night.

Edit posted sametime OP's last post.
You're using PIR's so secondary return is switched on and off when entering and exiting bathroom/washroom?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I don't doubt you are correct, I just checked JG website...
What dosent make sense is you can use this pipe for central heating return?
I will give it some serious thought but I would keep the DHW temperature low and the return would only be in use for short periods as it's on sensors..
Hmmm.

Its more down to the oxygen in the pipe degrading the inner walls

 

[Luggsey]

You need to use MLCP or copper because a secondary return is a continuously circulating HW system, in other words if you use plastic pipe because of the constant heat being absorbed it'll droop like you do after a beery night.

Edit posted sametime OP's last post.
You're using PIR's so secondary return is switched on and off when entering and exiting bathroom/washroom?

That's the plan with a temperature sensor at the end of the return before the tank so I can set it to 'just' warm up, can't see a problem tbh but I will check with JG tech when I get chance.

 

[sxdave]

View attachment 43544

So, first plumbing job in years, bought solder, flux and MAP gas as shown.
15mm copper pipe, shined up, fluxed, absolute failure!
I'm a sparks by trade and solder a lot but not with a flame.
Am I right to assume map is far to hot for an amateur to work with, I cooked the pipe!
Advice where I'm going wrong please, I cant afford a plumber!
Cheers.
Paul.
[automerge]1587827746[/automerge]


As a follow up, these bits are for a shower mixer, can I use JG speedfit for the link to the shower head with the supplied compression fitting or must I use a plastic fitting?View attachment 43545

JG Speedfit have a doc. 'Plastic Push-fit for plumbing and heating Technical Information', available on JG website. This gives details of how to use the Speedfit in compression fittings. Hope this helps. If you cannot find it I will try to do so and post the URL.

 

[SimonG]

https://www.johnguest.com/speedfit/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/08/RWC-JG-Speedfit-Technical-Specs-Guide.pdf

Page 15 bottom left hand corner.

 

[Luggsey]

https://www.johnguest.com/speedfit/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/08/RWC-JG-Speedfit-Technical-Specs-Guide.pdf

Page 15 bottom left hand corner.

That's a good read cheers, will have a look for more tips later on.
It does say 'continuous' pumped systems which this wont be because of sensors and temperature sensor of course?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Still doesn’t matter same situation no go