No switched live to boiler?

Basher · Oct 22, 2020

That is a pain. I agree you need another wire!
The system should have been done to the wiring regs, so I don't understand why you've ended up like this, unless due to 'organic growth' of the heating.

The 'borrowed neutral' is not the proper way as I'm sure you appreciate. In this instance it would work because both loads are on the same breaker, but not recommended - those more knowledgeable might like to comment?

Would it be practical to move the programmer to be nearer the wiring centre?

Alternatively if you were considering updating the system, eg to control individual radiators, then wireless could solve the issue.

CheshireH · Oct 22, 2020

Thanks Basher, I am not going to pursue the borrowed neutral idea. I am not quite knowledgeable enough to really understand why this would be problematic, but it would certainly be confusing.
I will indeed go wireless for the heating control, which would leave me with a spare wire to the boiler wiring centre to connect the neutral correctly for the hot water control. Most probably, I will even move the entire programmer to the garage next to the boiler, we do not really need to access hot water controls all the time, this runs on a timer and rarely gets changed. And my wife would rather like an extra socket in the place of the apparently very ugly programmer, and the fact that the programmer is locally supplied, with power not linked to the boiler, will allow this to be done!
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Deciding whether to move and keep the programmer next to the boiler and keep a manual on/off option available or go wireless and just connect the wireless receiver. I will be using a Lightwave RF boiler switch (as I have loads of Lightwave TRVs already) for CH, but not sure what to use for HW. Thinking of a wireless relay but worried about no manual override option. Any ideas?

Basher · Oct 22, 2020

Deciding whether to move and keep the programmer next to the boiler and keep a manual on/off option available or go wireless and just connect the wireless receiver. I will be using a Lightwave RF boiler switch (as I have loads of Lightwave TRVs already) for CH, but not sure what to use for HW. Thinking of a wireless relay but worried about no manual override option. Any ideas?
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No immediate bright ideas. It's a shame Lightwave don't do a combined heating and HW link. There are other brands doing this, but I guess would't integrate with what you're suggesting.
I used a Lightwave electric switch LW934 to control a water heater, and scheduled it with the app, but that won't integrate with a Lightwave thermostat controlling the boiler switch. And the boost button would be your phone!

If you decide to put a 13A socket where the programmer is (make sure the cable is 2.5mm) don't you then have a spare 3 core to the boiler wiring centre? In which case you could buy an electronic boost button and hard wire it! This sort of thing: Sangamo Powersaver Electronic Boost Timer 30min to 2 Hour - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SGPSB.html . I understand if this doesn't appeal!

CheshireH · Oct 22, 2020

Basher said:
I used a Lightwave electric switch LW934 to control a water heater, and scheduled it with the app, but that won't integrate with a Lightwave thermostat controlling the boiler switch. And the boost button would be your phone!

Oops, why does it not integrate with boiler switch/thermostat? I just put a saved search on eBay for the LW934 as it is no longer sold anywhere. Is it not just like a timed switch that you can schedule, activate via app, or indeed press manually?

Basher · Oct 22, 2020

CheshireH said:
Oops, why does it not integrate with boiler switch/thermostat? I just put a saved search on eBay for the LW934 as it is no longer sold anywhere. Is it not just like a timed switch that you can schedule, activate via app, or indeed press manually?

it does all those things - schedule, activate by app, and press manually, yes. Sorry, the integrate comment is misleading - I was thinking you might want to 'talk to it' via the boiler switch/thermostat.
The one thing about it, is that it has a temperature sensor, and turns off once the set temp is reached. It goes up to 40 or 45 deg C. So if you set it to max, the room never gets to that temp. so it continues switched on until the schedule activates 'off'.
I've got an unused LW934 if you want one! It was one of the few first series Lightwave devices which were Homekit compatible. I hope they don't stop supporting it.

Ziggie · Nov 1, 2020

Know nothing but taking a flier, the U.K. orange wires go to 10 . Why don’t you take the wires out of 10 and see if the boiler fires taking due care with 240 volts . I always with loose wires pop them into Wago connectors.
but read below first
If the boiler fires when the valve is closed then there is a feed from the valve directly to the boiler (possibly from another position.

if the boiler doesn’t fire, then something I’d connecting 10 to the boiler.

my system (y type) connects using 4 core to provide both LNE and switched live ( using a yellow core which nearly looks orange)

could it be that one orange is actually the switched live to the boiler?

this could explain that you need to put on one valve manually.

you say you have 3 valves - where is the 3 orange?

Probably a load of rubbish but you never know!

CheshireH · Nov 2, 2020

Good evening, I implemented everything that was discussed in this thread, but my last step, connecting a switched live to the boiler from where the orange cables terminate, is failing. I installed a new cable with four cores to the boiler today, and I connected the switched live from the oranges in the S-Plan wiring centre to terminal 1 on the x2 connector. I also removed the link between 6 and 7 on the x4 connector as per the Intergas manual. The boiler fired up just fine, ran for a while, but after about half an hour suddenly all power to the boiler and to the new hot water switch (fed by same mains power) was cut out. I removed and reinstalled the same fuse, and funnily enough (I cannot explain this at all), the power was back, and the same thing happened again, half an hour of running and then the power cut out again. Just the power feed to the boiler on the fused spur. I then suspected the spur switch and replaced it with another one. No joy, by now things would not start up again at all. I then removed the power to the boiler from the wiring centre - power was back when I put the circuit live again. I reconnected the boiler, and power cut out again immediately...Interestingly, the fuse is not blown. I tried various fuses in the process, so it was not down to one specific one. How can the power to the entire wiring centre be cut, with the fuse remaining operational?

I now returned everything to the original state, no switched live and reconnected 6 and 7 on the X4...

Can anybody make any sense of this?

Thanks, Henrik

Murdoch · Nov 3, 2020

CheshireH said:
I reconnected the boiler, and power cut out again immediately...Interestingly, the fuse is not blown. I tried various fuses in the process, so it was not down to one specific one. How can the power to the entire wiring centre be cut, with the fuse remaining operational?

What is tripping? MCB? RCD?

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

Murdoch said:
What is tripping? MCB? RCD?

Nothing is actually tripping. The fuse in the spur is also intact. Just a ll the devices connected to the spur stop working. Last night, I fully disconnected the boiler, other devices were fine again. Then I put everything in the boiler back to the state it was in before (6,7 connector on x4 back in, removed switched live from 1 in x2), and connecter it all into the wiring centre in the same places as yesterday. Now the boiler is running again, in the old (non-switched) manner. I just cannot explain at all why other devices lose mains power, too, without anything actually tripping...

Basher · Nov 3, 2020

CheshireH said:
Nothing is actually tripping. The fuse in the spur is also intact. Just a ll the devices connected to the spur stop working. Last night, I fully disconnected the boiler, other devices were fine again. Then I put everything in the boiler back to the state it was in before (6,7 connector on x4 back in, removed switched live from 1 in x2), and connecter it all into the wiring centre in the same places as yesterday. Now the boiler is running again, in the old (non-switched) manner. I just cannot explain at all why other devices lose mains power, too, without anything actually tripping...

Could it be a dodgey connection? Maybe a bit of sleeving slightly under a screw terminal somewhere? Otherwise needs diagnosis with a tester or multimeter when it's in 'fault' mode!

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

This is a possibility of course, but I am trying to understand the logic...Why would there be no more feed to the hot water switch if the boiler connection was 'dodgy'? Why did the 3 AMP fuse not blow (get destroyed)? Could a short circuit of some kind create a scenario in which this could happen?

Basher · Nov 3, 2020

CheshireH said:
This is a possibility of course, but I am trying to understand the logic...Why would there be no more feed to the hot water switch if the boiler connection was 'dodgy'? Why did the 3 AMP fuse not blow (get destroyed)? Could a short circuit of some kind create a scenario in which this could happen?

Sorry I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with the boiler connections. I was thinking more of the mains supply to the spur, and wonder if anything had been disturbed during removal of the original programmer, unless I have misunderstood the extent of your upgrade.

Murdoch · Nov 3, 2020

Just remember it may be live and the issue is with the neutral

John.g · Nov 3, 2020

CheshireH said:
Nothing is actually tripping. The fuse in the spur is also intact. Just a ll the devices connected to the spur stop working. Last night, I fully disconnected the boiler, other devices were fine again. Then I put everything in the boiler back to the state it was in before (6,7 connector on x4 back in, removed switched live from 1 in x2), and connecter it all into the wiring centre in the same places as yesterday. Now the boiler is running again, in the old (non-switched) manner. I just cannot explain at all why other devices lose mains power, too, without anything actually tripping...

What do you mean by the non-switched manner?, is the boiler now stopping/starting from the programmer/mid position valve in all modes or have you a permanent live from somewhere and the boiler is permanently on just starting/stopping on its boiler stat?.

SJB060685 · Nov 3, 2020

How were you testing for a feed? With a multimeter? Sure you've not lost a neutral somewhere?

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

John.g said:
What do you mean by the non-switched manner?, is the boiler now stopping/starting from the programmer/mid position valve in all modes or have you a permanent live from somewhere and the boiler is permanently on just starting/stopping on its boiler stat?.

Permanent live - as I had before. The idea was to introduce a switched live, of course, plus some other upgrades (wireless controllers etc. - which all work fine).
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SJB060685 said:
How were you testing for a feed? With a multimeter? Sure you've not lost a neutral somewhere?

So far I have not tested with a multimeter - I do not really like opening the wiring centre when the power is on. So it could of course be a neutral connection. If I 'lost' one neutral (say the boiler neutral, which was the latest change when I swapped from 3 core to 4 core cable, was 'dodgy'), could that cause other devices attached to the spur to stop functioning (even though they worked fine before)?

John.g · Nov 3, 2020

Can you connect say a 100W test lamp or bulb across the switched live in the wiring centre and switch between the three different modes and see what happens.

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

Alternatively (even though I cannot see how this could have happened), if the newly attached neutral wire somehow touched any live wire, all neutral would be live in the neutrals block, which I assume would stop anything from working? Is that correct? Should this not trip the RCD or consumer unit fuse?
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John.g said:
Can you connect say a 100W test lamp or bulb across the switched live in the wiring centre and switch between the three different modes and see what happens.

Yes, I can do that once I am convinced that it is now working OK again without the switched live - as mentioned I reconnected everything this morning so I may have eliminated a 'dodgy' connection. Boiler has been running fine all morning in permanent live mode.

SJB060685 · Nov 3, 2020

This really needs to be tested with a multimeter and by someone experienced. If you lost a neutral or have a dodgy connection at the boiler then the boiler won't engage, likewise if there was a dodgy connection in the wiring centre it will have the same affect on all system components. As Murdoch said above the live/lives could well be carrying full voltage but without a neutral there is no loop created and no function of components.
The only real way to test this is with a multimeter, checking for 230 volts between live and neutral and live and earth, not with a terminal screwdriver I suspect you've used?

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

SJB060685 said:
This really needs to be tested with a multimeter and by someone experienced. If you lost a neutral or have a dodgy connection at the boiler then the boiler won't engage, likewise if there was a dodgy connection in the wiring centre it will have the same affect on all system components. As Murdoch said above the live/lives could well be carrying full voltage but without a neutral there is no loop created and no function of components.
The only real way to test this is with a multimeter, checking for 230 volts between live and neutral and live and earth, not with a terminal screwdriver I suspect you've used?

I do have a multimeter, I am not taking any chances with electricity. But so far I never even had the wiring centre open when the power was (supposedly) on. I understand what you are saying about the voltage, even without any component operating.

My new wiring centre has connector blocks for neutral and earth that are connected via small 'paper clip' metal connectors. I am wondering whether they are reliable? I did not like them when wiring things up, as I wanted to use insulated ferrules everywhere, but I could not get the ferrules into the connector blocks alongside the 'clips'. So my neutrals and earth are connected with bare wires. I am thinking about redoing the earth and neutral blocks with proper cable connection between the terminals in the respective blocks?

SJB060685 · Nov 3, 2020

@Murdoch can you explain to him the requirements in this case. My understanding is any wires or links should be of suitable size and insulated. If not then I can see potential arching, which would obviously cause things to trip as well as potential fire hazards.

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

SJB060685 said:
@Murdoch can ypu explain to him the requirements in this case. My understanding is any wires or links should be of suitable size and insulated. If not then I can see potential arching, which would obviously cause things to trip as well as potential fire hazards.

I would appreciate this. The wiring centre which I purchased is a Danfoss WC4B which is purpose made for S/Y-Plan wiring, and the small clips in the neutral and earth blocks came pre-installed.
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These are the paper clip style connectors I am referring too. I managed to get the insulated ferrules in on this example using the old wiring centre, but I was struggling in the mix of all cables to fit them in. Could try again if the paper style clips are ok to use, otherwise I could use the double entry ferrules (example on right) to add little 1mm wire connectors between the terminals?

SJB060685 · Nov 3, 2020

Those links are supplied with the wiring centre and are already in place for how the wiring should be done. They are ok but all other wires should be insulated.

CheshireH · Nov 3, 2020

SJB060685 said:
Those links are supplied with the wiring centre and are already in place for how the wiring should be done. They are ok but all other wires should be insulated.

All wires are insulated and fitted with insulated ferrrules. Links between Live terminals are made with 1.5mm insulated links. It is just the earths and neutrals that are fitted without ferrules, alongside the 'clip links'.

Murdoch · Nov 3, 2020

My advice is to stop meddling and pay somebody ........

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