Have I hired a cowboy? | UK Plumbers Forums | Plumbers Forums

Welcome to the forum. Although you can post in any forum, the USA forum is here in case of local regs or laws

Have I hired a cowboy?

Post thread
Post reply

Discuss Have I hired a cowboy? in the UK Plumbers Forums area at Plumbers Forums

S

Sylvergrunge

Messages
40
We have a leak in a central heating pipe under the tiled floor in our downstairs bathroom. The water was seeping up through the floor. I called a plumber and he lifted the tiles and dug to reveal the pipe and find the leak. He has repaired the leak using compression joints (also repaired larger 28mm pipe which he punctured when digging), which he says are more reliable than soldering, but we have had constant leaks from each pipe every time the water is turned back on. Water is now off and boiler not working, so he is due back today. I have researched and found that compression joints should not be used under concrete and joints should be soldered. I also read pipes should be protected with Denso tape, but he says they need no protection. He is also going to fill the hole with rapid set tiling adhesive before refitting the tiles. Am I right to be worried?
 

Attachments

  • 20211124_114600.jpg
    20211124_114600.jpg
    527.8 KB · Views: 205
  • 20211124_114532.jpg
    20211124_114532.jpg
    664.2 KB · Views: 192
Solution
R
Sorry, yes.

Those compression joints on the 28 look to be crooked (so will leak) and have been tightened with grips because he obviously lacked a big enough spanner for them (cosmetic issue, but doesn't bode well).

The work on the smaller-bore pipe looks tidy enough, but you should definitely avoid compression joints that are not accessible (technically the water regulations considers tiles to be an 'accessible' cover, but I think the idea is in a wall, not buried in a concrete floor!). Anyway, soldered joints are cheaper and more reliable. I can understand that compression may have been easier in this situation (only in some respects), but it just isn't a situation I'd have chosen to use compression in.

Denso tape is best for...
Sort by date Sort by votes
1. What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.
2. He's talking nonsense. The best form of joint for inaccessible places is a properly soldered joint. Even better if pressure tested before floor re-laid.
3. What is in the 28 mm pipe? Is it water, or gas. If gas it absolutely must not have an inaccessible compression joint.
4. I'd recommend you get someone who knows what they are doing. If that is a gas pipe, they must be Gas Safe registered.
 
Upvote 1 Downvote
steadyon said:
1. What was the cause of the original leak? If pin-holed copper pipe, then likely to be much more widespread than just the point at which the leak occurred.
2. He's talking nonsense. The best form of joint for inaccessible places is a properly soldered joint. Even better if pressure tested before floor re-laid.
3. What is in the 28 mm pipe? Is it water, or gas. If gas it absolutely must not have an inaccessible compression joint.
4. I'd recommend you get someone who knows what they are doing. If that is a gas pipe, they must be Gas Safe registered.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply. Apparently the leak was at the T joint. He didn't mention pin holes. The leaks happening now are definitely from the compression joins as i can see water coming out of them, even after tightening.
I have already paid out £427 for him to complete the work to this stage, so hoping he can sort it :/ The 28mm pipe is defo water. I think it is from the pump or tank to the boiler.
How shall I get him to pressure test it before relaying the floor?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IMO, the new stuff needs removing and redoing to a proper standard. Make sure the damp proof membrane wasn't damaged in the first attempt. Entombing pipes in concrete is a not a good idea, even if you do wrap them. It's better to form a channel and cover it with a wooden lid to allow access without hacking out concrete (or epoxy!).

I'd not let whoever did what's in your pictures try to remedy the work, they clearly didn't know what they are doing and may make things worse. Get someone competent and, if you can be bothered, try to reclaim some of the cost from your first 'plumber'.
 
Upvote 1 Downvote
Sorry, yes.

Those compression joints on the 28 look to be crooked (so will leak) and have been tightened with grips because he obviously lacked a big enough spanner for them (cosmetic issue, but doesn't bode well).

The work on the smaller-bore pipe looks tidy enough, but you should definitely avoid compression joints that are not accessible (technically the water regulations considers tiles to be an 'accessible' cover, but I think the idea is in a wall, not buried in a concrete floor!). Anyway, soldered joints are cheaper and more reliable. I can understand that compression may have been easier in this situation (only in some respects), but it just isn't a situation I'd have chosen to use compression in.

Denso tape is best for concrete. A lot of good plumbers would use duct tape instead if the pipes are just in a wall behind plaster or whatever. But I think your guy is well out of his depth so Denso tape or not is by the by. Soldering is one of the first things you should learn on a basic plumbing course (though it is possible to pass without actually being any good at it). Compression joints are supposedly more DIY friendly, though actually there most definitely is a knack and even good plumbers will have the very occasional leak with compression. To have several on one job and to have left the site before checking, however...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Solution
Thanks for all your replies. Currently sat with it still leaking even after his return today. We discussed having the pipes above ground instead of under the concrete and boxing them in. Happier with this from a practical perspective even though it won't look as sleek. Currently finding our bathroom has more issues elsewhere (leak under the bath too) and feeling rather overwhelmed with the whole thing. I would like to bin him off for another plumber but we currently have no water or heating now (so worse off than when we started) and he is due back tomorrow. All other plumbers I called in the area are booked up for weeks so really not sure where to turn. My husband and I both work from home and were freezing today 😞
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
gmartine said:
Feel for you. Tell him to make good what he's actually done (make it leak free) get your boiler going and tell him to Sod off. If you can live with it buy a bag of sharp sand, fill in the hole and compact and cover until you can get it fixed properly.
Click to expand...
That is a good idea. Will speak with him when he gets here tomorrow. My only issue now is finding a local plumber in Exeter that isn't a cowboy, and that will actually call me back!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
scott_d said:
Doesn’t look like a nice job to try and repair
Is there lots of pipework under concrete?
Click to expand...
There are two smaller pipes going horizontal to the wall and the large pipe going across them. It definitely isn't neat down there or easy to get to. Must admit (to my untrained eye) looking at other things in the bathroom, it may have been a bit of a both job initially and there are other bits that will need looking at once the leak is fixed. E.g. took panel off bath to find the wood struts that are holding the bath up are not even screwed together!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
We’ve all been there can’t stop it leaking / dripping so soldering is a no go

Only way compression, I’ll hold my hands up and say I’ve used compression in a floor only reason why it kept dripping
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
ShaunCorbs said:
We’ve all been there can’t stop it leaking / dripping so soldering is a no go

Only way compression, I’ll hold my hands up and say I’ve used compression in a floor only reason why it kept dripping
Click to expand...
Never fails to amaze me how little water/steam is needed to take all the heat out of a propane torch flame! I have a roughly 1m long, 12mm dia. length of silicone tubing that I push up the pipework as far as it will go and blow down it to purge water but it doesn't always work. Would love to hear about any other tricks...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Radian said:
Never fails to amaze me how little water/steam is needed to take all the heat out of a propane torch flame! I have a roughly 1m long, 12mm dia. length of silicone tubing that I push up the pipework as far as it will go and blow down it to purge water but it doesn't always work. Would love to hear about any other tricks...
Click to expand...
Electric soldering. Heat is more direct so doesn't travel down the pipe and create steam so much. I don't own this kind of kit, but borrowed one once.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
scott_d said:
Both sides of pipe buried in concrete so no movement at all to get fittings in.
Pipes damaged from trying to expose them.
Could be imperial.
It’s not a job I would want and I bet the plumber regrets ever touching it.
Click to expand...
Mmmm, if imperial I suppose he'd have a bit of a case.
Still I would've excavated much more and pull up more tiles if need be to make more room and free up the pipes if by only a little. You can see how distorted and beaten up the 28mm is cos he's forced it. No tape, paste or use of a bender which may of helped. If imperial could've used conversion couplings and or slip couplings and he still charged a chunk for a terrible job and left the client without heating or hot water. He could've used a flexi as temporary fix and left the bath rad disconnected untill he got his XXXX together. Just not good enough imo despite the possible difficulties.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0 Downvote
He is back again today. He is welding the pipes and going to leave it all open for now as we are now considering more bathroom work (with a different plumber) as other issues have been exposed. I will make sure he has the water and heating back up and running before he leaves. Agreed that this is all under warranty of original work (as when I paid he thought all was fixed and said 2 year warranty on all work) so no more payment expected. To pressure check would you suggest I just turn water on and heating and wait to see if there are leaks?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
gmartine said:
Your boiler should have a pressure gauge, it'll rise and fall a bit when heating turns on and when the system cools. Just keep an eye on it to see if it falls alot more than through normal use.
Click to expand...
Qe don't have a combi boiler. It is an open system. Shall I listen for the header tank in the loft filling once the heating is on? Shall I try and make him hang around for a while 9nce it is all on?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well it's all got very heated. He says the large pipe is leaking further down and he is no longer going to work for free to fix it all. All I have asked is that he fixes the compression joints that he put in in the first place, that are still leaking! He is shouting over me and won't listen. Also he says he works for a company and blames them for things, but won't give us details of anyone else to contact in his company. I don't think it is a company, just him!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Shame you've paid up. I'm not sure what else to suggest 'cept get him out and contact an emergency qualified plumber and pay the rate for a fix. However you said he's guaranteed the work so he is obliged to at least leave you in a slightly better state of repairs, is it in writing at least? Don't need to answer that...
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
gmartine said:
Shame you've paid up. I'm not sure what else to suggest 'cept get him out and contact an emergency qualified plumber and pay the rate for a fix. However you said he's guaranteed the work so he is obliged to at least leave you in a slightly better state of repairs, is it in writing at least? Don't need to answer that...
Click to expand...
I know! I am writing off the £427 as an expensive lesson learnt. I have contacted another plumber through a recommendation and he is coming to have a look later. Thanks for all your help and support, and being a listening ear. It has been very much appreciated 🙏
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
New posts

Similar plumbing topics

dreikher
  • Question
Hole in copper pipe, solder under floor, T coupling & protection
Hello, I am just catching up on some threads...
Replies
1
Views
615
Lou
Lou
T
  • Question
Corrosion on Pipe / Fittings
No
Replies
9
Views
723
ShaunCorbs
ShaunCorbs
D
  • Question
BIG HIDDEN LEAK IN HOUSE
Many thanks for the advice.
Replies
3
Views
858
Dimmy007
D
N
  • Question
Unvented system leak issue
Brilliant, thanks for that info, will be very...
Replies
16
Views
2K
Novice needs help
N
tbokris
  • Question
Difficult leak on waste stack in block of flats
First, ensure the exact position of the leak...
Replies
7
Views
2K
Timmy D
T
Back
Top