Boiler 15mm gas supply pipes / which boiler

[Gixxerman]

1) I am needing a new boiler but as my usual luck would have it, the current gas supply pipes are only 15mm.
Seraching the web (and this forum), it would seem that all new convetional boilers require 22mm pipes to guarantee the 20mBar minimum requirement for the boiler.
The problem I have got is that the boiler is in the kitchen on an external wall and the consumer unit is on the opposite external wall of the house. The distance from the consumer unit to the boiler is approximately 4.5m as the crow flies. However, I am not sure how much of that pipe run is 15mm or 22mm as it is in walls / under concrete floor. I have looked in the consumer unit and it is 22mm going into the house. Somewhere off this there will be a branch for the gas fire which is on the same wall as the consumer unit. In the kitchen the boiler supply pipe comes up the external wall (actually buried just under the rendering) where it comes out just below the boiler. Just before it enters the boiler there is a T-piece with a branch off for the cooker. The cooker point is being removed as I am having a new kitchen fitted at the same time with an electric cooker. So my question is how can I easily find out if the pipe is 15mm all the way back to the consumer unit? Is it likely that the pipe have been converted from 22mm to 15 underground or maybe in the wall running to the boiler? I am only asking this as replacing the pipe will cost a lot of money. If we could locate a possible 22/15 reducer somewhere in the pipe close to the boiler (idealy in the kitchen wall) then the ammount of work/cost is reduced. A plumber has suggested running the pipe on the outside of the house, which I am not too keen on as it will look awful. The only other option is to run the new 22mm pipe up from the consumer unit to the cupboard under the stairs, then on wall up under the stairs to the floorboards under the landing. From there, it can follow the water pipes down from the water cylinder (in airing cupboard on landing) or go across the spare bedroom and then directly down the wall where the boiler is mounted. I want a neat job but with being totally shafted. I have had one estimate so far at £1650 of which £900 is labour.
2) I can't decide on which boiler. I want a system (conventional?) boiler as I have heard that combi boilers don't last that long round here due to the hard water. However, getting rid of the airing cupboard (which I don't use) would make my small bathroom a bit bigger and I could put in a shower unit where the airing cupboard is. I had wanted a Worcester/Bosch 12Ri. However the plumber recomended Remeha or Veissmann.

What should I do?
Help!

 

[newbie1]

firstly the hard water problem fit a scale reducer on the cold inlet to the combi
all boilers now will call for a 22mm supply which will normally reduce at the boiler to 15mm
using youre 15mm orig supply could lead to a lot of problems with low pressure and would void the warranty on the boiler and worst case be dangerous
you will need to run a new min 22mm or even 28mm if the distance involves lots of elbows in the pipework because that 4.5m could actually become 10-12m i would suggest calling a gas safe engineer to come and look and give you some advice free
as regards your quote taking labour off and you are only paying 750.00 for new boiler /flue/clock/trvs i would say grab that quote as depending on what part of country most straighforward boiler chops will be 17-1800 pounds so that is a very good price
how large is the house and how much hot water do you need as the 12ri is a very small boiler for a 3 bed house with average water use i would have prob put in at least a 20kw boiler

 

[Gixxerman]

Only small 2 bed semi. Currently have an apollo 15/30 and that is fine for the size of house.
Is there any easy way to check what size pipe runs to the consumer unit with knocking loads of holes in floors and walls? Is it likely that there is a 22/15 reducer somewhere embedded in the wall / floor? (or is this line of investigation a waste of time).

 

[newbie1]

ok then the 12ri would prob be fine
now your next question about finding a reducer somewhere in there is needle in a haystack
if they have where have they put it without lifting boards or knocking hole in wall you wont possibly find the answer
to be perfectly honest there is no easy answer to your prob even 22mm might not be enough if you are running a new supply as you are only allowed a 1mb drop between the meter and the boiler when it running and the length of the new run will need to be calculated which is why i said you cant just connect old supply and hope for best
i assume the quote you have is to run a new supply and again that is a fairly good price if he is going to run new gas pipe fit trvs to rads supply and pipe up new boiler
We did a 18ri with trvs and power flush and flue manager at mates rates for 1450.00 and didnt need new gas as it had 22mm in the kitchen allready so youre price sounds a solid price

 

[Plucky]

In the worcester manufacturers instructions for the 12ri they state you can use 15mm pipe work for that particular boiler as long as meter is less than 4 metres away and as long as you have a minimum of 18.5mb working pressure at the boiler. It is safe to assume the the tee for the gas cooker in the kitchen will be the reducing tee. So its likely to only be in 15mm for the last few metres from cooker to the boiler.

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/ca...r-technical-and-specification-information.pdf

check out page 16 under the Natural gas supply section. They state that both the 12ri and the 15ri will run on 15mm supply providing correct working pressure is achieved.

 

[newbie1]

without ascertaining where that 22mm-15mm tee is youre taking a chance and the consumer unit has been stated at 4.5m away as the crow flies but the crow probable isnt flying in different direction to get to the boiler point so the calculated length is likely to be well in excess of 4.5m unless you find for certain where that 22mm reduces to 15mm you could find after all the work that the pressure at the boiler is below manuf inst and engineer will want more money for his extra time..he must have looked at the tee for the cooker and been able to say if its a 15mm tee or 22-15 tee
the worcester manual states it may be possible to use 15mm but this will be determined by distance to meter and route of supply pipework and its calculated length all things that at present are unknown

 

[migoplumber]

pipe sizing seems covered.
i would agree with your installer about boiler choice, as long as the viesmanns dosnt include the weather compensator.
cant go wrong with the broagg!! lots of good back up.

shaun

 

[Gixxerman]

Can those wire finder/pipe finder gadgets help out in locating pipes / measuring pipe sizes? Surly in this modern day and age there must be some way of locating the pipes / sizes with digging for them.

As for the cooker T-piece, you seem to have misunderstood me as to it's location. The t-piece is located about 4 inches or so below the entry into the boiler, this then goes off to the cooker (so the cooker is downstream of the boiler / T-piece). The pipe leading to the T-piece is 15mm upstream of the T-piece. I have dug down the wall a bit but it is still 15mm. I suppose I could have another dig into the wall just above floor height. If it is still 15mm there then at least I know that in means the floor has to come up which is a non-starter due to cost/hassle. If it is 22mm at floor level then it is a much easier job. At least then we'll know what we are up against.

 

[newbie1]

you really have no option but to run a new 22mm poss 28mm supply from the meter as without digging up floor or wall at what point are you going to start or finish your search for that elusive reducer
no the pipe finder will only find a pipe it will not tell you where the 22mm becomes 15mm,,if you have a tool that does that let me know as i will buy one

 

[Plucky]

you really have no option but to run a new 22mm poss 28mm supply from the meter as without digging up floor or wall at what point are you going to start or finish your search for that elusive reducer
no the pipe finder will only find a pipe it will not tell you where the 22mm becomes 15mm,,if you have a tool that does that let me know as i will buy one

He's only 4.5 metres away from the metre. Unless he is putting in a big Combi I cant see 28mm being necessary

 

[newbie1]

i know but he is planning a convulated route with the new supply so the fitter will need to work out the calculated size to be on the safe side if he starts chucking in 9-10 elbows that could become 10m before he knows it..just trying to save him the grief of firing up and it under performing..but 22mm should be ok with the size of boiler as a lot of the boilers use 22mm as a precaution but would probably work on 15 but these days everyone has to cover their arse as we have become a compensation culture and in this case the fitter would get the blame with the old but you should have known

 

[Gixxerman]

Looks like it's going to be a right pain in the a**e.
I chap I know about 5 doors down had the same issues and he had to fit a pipe on the outside of the house. He didn't have to go that far with his (about a third of the distance I require) but it still looks naff.

Not wishing to alienate myself to plumbers, but I have a question/observation about labour rates. Take me for example. I am a control system design engineer. It took me 2 years at tech college and 3 years at uni to become qualified. It then took me over 15 years experience to get to the level I am at now (principal engineer). I work for a multi-million pound gas turbine manufacturing organisation and take home about £540 a week. In contrast, a plumber can take a relatively short course and with a moderate ammout of experience charge £900 for 2 days work. Just seems a little out of balance.

 

[Beeline]

Not all plumbers, i generally make £500 for a 1 1/2 to 2 day boiler swop. You gotta also consider we have insurance, advertising, vehicle and tool costs, registration fees and lots of time visiting and estimating/quoting for customers. The labour costs must include a proportion of all these costs. Then theres the dreaded taxman whipping his bit off the top too. But then not all charge what i do.
I would say your on a good wage, no stress related to running a business, you get paid sickness and holidays and pre-determined working hours (theres not many plumbers who would do a mere 40 hour week only!!) - all things I dont have the pleasure of.
Hope this gives a clearer picture, although some plumbers rip people off and some are reasonable.

 

[Plouasne]

Not all plumbers, i generally make £500 for a 1 1/2 to 2 day boiler swop. You gotta also consider we have insurance, advertising, vehicle and tool costs, registration fees and lots of time visiting and estimating/quoting for customers. The labour costs must include a proportion of all these costs. Then theres the dreaded taxman whipping his bit off the top too. But then not all charge what i do.
I would say your on a good wage, no stress related to running a business, you get paid sickness and holidays and pre-determined working hours (theres not many plumbers who would do a mere 40 hour week only!!) - all things I dont have the pleasure of.
Hope this gives a clearer picture, although some plumbers rip people off and some are reasonable.

Beeline,

You missed out a couple of things that an employed person gets, and a self employed person does not get, unemployment benefit (last I heard was you had to be out of work for 6 months before they would look at you), pension, cost of an office even if it is in your own home, BUPA style health care, cost of insurance to employ a person if you are off sick for some time

 

[radswilldo]

£900 for 2 days work is not what 99% of self employed plumbers charge by a long shot. Labour charge is not what the engineer pockets, thats pure ignorance. If you dont think your job pays you enough, come be a licensed gas installer, take the responsibillity and earn the vast fortunes you think we earn.

 

[newbie1]

factor in time taken to give all the free quotes..maybe ten hours to get one job and you may start to see the reason for the prices
if it was all profit then everyone would become a gas engineer

 

[Gixxerman]

Radswilldo - Sorry if I offended you that was not my intention.
To all you guys on here, I was not having a go. I was just trying to understand why the labour rates are as high as they are.
Thanks for the explanation guys, I never thought about all the hours you have to put in and the benefits that you do not get etc.
But look at it from my point of view, without knowing your operating costs it looks on the face of it very expensive.
So back to my problem. I don't want pipe on the outside of the house - so what are options?

 

[newbie1]

you can run it internally but be prepared to possibly use 28mm then 15 or tracpipe is a possibility as its more flexible but its also more expensive
if your adamant that you dont want it outside then the plumber need to sit down work out the lengths and how many elbows to make sure of the pressure drop from the meter to the boiler

 

[brightbell]

Ask your installer if he thinks its worth installing the boiler first and checking the pressure and performance on the original pipe, if it fails testing you can then have the pipe upgraded but you would not be able to have the boiler in operation and fully comissioned until this was complete. One installer who quoted for my boiler suggested this athough in the end I went for another quote which included a new 28mm pipe anyway and this was a more powerful 28kw combi.

 

[stevetheplumber]

Radswilldo - Sorry if I offended you that was not my intention.
To all you guys on here, I was not having a go. I was just trying to understand why the labour rates are as high as they are.
Thanks for the explanation guys, I never thought about all the hours you have to put in and the benefits that you do not get etc.
But look at it from my point of view, without knowing your operating costs it looks on the face of it very expensive.
So back to my problem. I don't want pipe on the outside of the house - so what are options?

if you think the quote is high give british gas a ring get a quote from them
then youll understand what exspensive is

 

[Gixxerman]

if you think the quote is high give british gas a ring get a quote from them, then youll understand what exspensive is

Yeah good point. It probably would be cheaper to knock the house down and start again...

 

[newbie1]

as i stated that is a very good quote i would have priced it at around 2000.00 tbh its only recession driving prices down
someone quoted 3000.00 for full install
7 rads
1 towel rail
trvs
combi boiler
incl rip out warm air unit
thats crazy with labour of 1200.00 for 2 guys so 600.00 each

 

[smoggs03]

Yeah good point. It probably would be cheaper to knock the house down and start again...[/Q sounds like you havn't rang them yet? big mistake they are coming for the one man band in a big way!!! prices are tumbling fast!!

 

[newbie1]

bg will never match a one man band prices its impossible due overheads
they still want 3k for straight combi swap

 

[smoggs03]

bg will never match a one man band prices its impossible due overheads
they still want 3k for straight combi swap

wrong!! 1800 quid theyre called simplicity the installer quotes sends in his spec and gives an install date this cuts out half the office work no salesman involved(who incidently is losing his big flash motor for a badged van) no more need for 'packs' only the exact items needed are sold and bg even think that it will be done cheaper than the £1800 once up and running full systems and tailor made jobs are next. Bg aren't immune to the credit crunch and are cutting costs everywhere for the specific purpose of the one man band.