Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement Systems

[rodders]

And every "professional" you ask will give a different answer.

Yeah but if a "professional" gives me an answer by email it will be far easier to defend myself incase building control want to take me to court etc...

Just trying to cover myself...

 

[doitmyself]

Yeah but if a "professional" gives me an answer by email it will be far easier to defend myself in case building control want to take me to court etc...

Now you are really opening a can of worms!

An email is unlikely to be accepted as evidence by the court, so you will have to ask the professional to appear in person (at your expense!).The qualifications and experience of the professional will immediately be questioned by BC's lawyer, who will produce his own "expert witness" to prove that your professional is talking through his hat.

 

[rodders]

Now you are really opening a can of worms!

An email is unlikely to be accepted as evidence by the court, so you will have to ask the professional to appear in person (at your expense!).The qualifications and experience of the professional will immediately be questioned by BC's lawyer, who will produce his own "expert witness" to prove that your professional is talking through his hat.

Sorry but you seem to misunderstand, I have gone to my local Building Control office & Department for Communities and Local Government to get a proper professional answer. I have not asked some random guy with a degree from Uni to back me up on an email in case I go to court.

 

[chris watkins]

Sorry rodders but you are mistaken if you think that your local BC office is likely to contain any expert's capable of giving you a professional answer, you obviously missed my post on one of our local ones who didn't even know what an un-vented hot water system was, or that it was covered by Part G, what hope then but if you what to know what is required read for yourself it is all in the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf

 

[rodders]

Sorry rodders but you are mistaken if you think that your local BC office is likely to contain any expert's capable of giving you a professional answer, you obviously missed my post on one of our local ones who didn't even know what an un-vented hot water system was, or that it was covered by Part G, what hope then but if you what to know what is required read for yourself it is all in the Domestic Heating Compliance Guide.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf

Building control police the building regs so if they cant get an answer between them theres no chance they can take anyone to court to breaching the regs they cant tell you about.

As referenced, I understand what is required as per post #1.

But what I'm saying is who follows this on every job (some people may) and how can you compete with other companys that do not follow this.

 

[diamondgas]

Building control police the building regs so if they cant get an answer between them theres no chance they can take anyone to court to breaching the regs they cant tell you about.

As referenced, I understand what is required as per post #1.

But what I'm saying is who follows this on every job (some people may) and how can you compete with other companys that do not follow this.

In my view rodders the only place you'll have to conform would be building sites! That's the only place I can envisage Building Control Officers present, otherwise they're at yours or the customers request far as I can tell!

In answer to competing, you either lower your standards and ignore building regs or you sell the benefits of added control and let the customer choose who to believe and trust with the work they're wanting completed! End of the day it's their home we're being invited into and their choice as to the work carried out. If you're really concerned then draught up a disclaimer that the customer can sign that'll cover your butt

 

[rodders]

Right, time to put this one to bed once and for all...

I spoke to a Building Control officer at the local council and they advised me for a definite answer I need to speak to the Department for Communities and Local Government.

I emailed the following to someone at Department for Communities and Local Government who was there to give advice on Part L.

I have a question regarding Part L & Domestic Building Services Guide.

If a boiler is being replaced (like for like i.e natural gas fuelled for natural gas fuelled, in England) in a domestic dwelling what are the requirements for zoning the central heating system?

Is it right that if the boiler is being replaced that the central heating needs to be separated into two different zones (1 zone upstairs & 1 zone downstairs).

Thank you,

(not the whole email but you get the drift...)

I then received a reply (this is not the full email...) from them stating;


When simply replacing a boiler, there is no requirement to upgrade the whole heating system to meet current standards. In general it is only the component being replaced that needs to comply.

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective. For example, there could be one room thermostat upstairs and one downstairs, or one could be in a lounge and the other in a home office.

There is further information in the Domestic Building Services Compliance Guide at www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/domestic_building_compliance_guide_2010.pdf - see for example Supplementary Information on page 24.

I hope this is helpful.

Best regards

So finally I have an answer. No zones needed on a boiler change... and only need to put zones in a new heating system if cost effective.

So basically no need to zone off new system either really (unless greater than 150m2).

I find it surprising that no one had a definite answer everyone kind of guessing (it is complicated I know).

Now I'm sure some people will be sitting there thinking "I knew that anyway" well - I didn't.

Thank you for your time and interest!

 

[chris watkins]

rodders can I say a thank you, personally & I am sure on behalf of all interested parties. Now we all know so can stop this = :willy_nilly:

 

[rodders]

rodders can I say a thank you, personally & I am sure on behalf of all interested parties. Now we all know so can stop this = :willy_nilly:

No problem it's been a grey area for me for a while so I thought I would get a proper answer and stop guessing.

Thanks

 

[peteheat]

Well done Rodders,

We have similar regs in Ireland, to add to the confusion we also a grant in place for boiler upgrades, one of the terms is new boiler must have new controls as described here two zones and hot water basically a three zone system.

One of the requirements on the installer is to use 10m2 earth for bonding all pipework, the earth must run back to the board, of course most houses have 6m2 so installers used 6m2.

Not allowed re-work orders flying all over the country, as the contractor we must carry out any such work at our own expense it is not regarded as the customers fault, the contractor also gets penalty points for every mistake 12 points and your off the contractor list, you can appeal any points below is a guide of what is not accepted as grounds for appeal.

Unacceptable grounds for Appeal
Additional work will be completed to bring the installation to the required standard
Where reworks are identified then the contractor is required to undertake these reworks, and the applicable penalty points remain on the contractors’ profile. It is not a case of one sanction or the other, but rather both.
Do not agree with the requirements of the Technical Specification
Minor error that will not happen again
Homeowner did not want to undertake full specification of works, could not afford the extra works, did not want to upset the house further.

And they wonder why contractors are not happy with the scheme?

At least what you discovered makes sense, well done.

 

[diamondgas]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too

 

[rodders]

Does that go for TRV's not required too rodders and/or timer/thermostat? That also adds a lot of time and money to a job if not required? Just curious but now that you're pals with these folk maybe they'd clarify that one too

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

 

[diamondgas]

I'd say you would need timer/thermostat to provide boiler interlock and to make the boiler (the component being replaced) comply with the regs. As with TRVs i'd fit them as part of the job, but from the response I got I'd say you have a good case if you say the customer didn't want TRVs due to the extra cost.

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO

 

[peteheat]

I'd agree with you. Its more of a "best practice" approach. Make the customer aware of the changes in requirements and allowing them the choices that they may not have otherwise been aware of End of the day it makes for more profit installing the additional controls so I'd say in the installers interest to promote them! IMO

Not just profits, easy to work controls will save the customer money and they will have a more comfortable home, no more switching off radiators in rooms they aren't using causing draughts etc.

If you get the first customer in a mature housing estate where the neighbours talk to each other your customer can bring you a lot more business based on their satisfaction with the job.

Instead of the inconvenience of having to replace the boiler they have improved their home with an upgraded more efficient heating system, ergo value for money.

 

[Foodface]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

 

[chris watkins]

Wow, just read this thread as I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" and they just looked at me as if I was trying to fill my boots on the job. I then asked if any other of my fellow plumbing professionals had mentioned the issue of zoning and I was told no.

The house is a small two up two down and I'm going to submit the quote with the zoning included, cos I agree with Chris but having missed out on a few big jobs due to my desire to do everything properly I am now worried that all my efforts are in vain because when it comes down to it money talks and there are too many people out there doing what they like in order to make money. I do a lot of boiler servicing and quite frankly the standard of plumbing in the area I live in is pretty poor, limited boiler/heating controls and shoddy practice, which concerns me.

Rodders I commend your resolve for clearing the issue up too.

Just a quick one FF. The VAT for heating controls is charged at 5% which can really help sell the extra controls to custards.

 

[Foodface]

Cheers Chris, this quote is becoming problematic. What I don't understand is that if the industry knew this change in legislation was coming then why haven't the boiler manufacturers developed integrated zoning options and controls as part of the boiler design, to save all the messing about. I was wanting to put in a RF programmer and stat, only to then read that this particular brands RF stat and receivers only work in pairs which means more money more messing about and more unhappy clients.

The zoning options for this install have already added 240 to the price of the job and I've not even started yet, plus it'll need wiring in by someone part p registered.

They are going to think I'm taking the mickey when they see the figures.

 

[peteheat]

Two quotes for the same job, one includes zoning etc to regulations and common sense, second is for bog standard install.

When surveying the job I discuss the zoning with the customer so it can save time typing for quote one, just head it recommended installation as discussed, quote two basic installation not to recommended standard as discussed.

The choice is now up to the customer, the difference is job 1 they will thank you for the savings and comfort levels the new system brings them, job 2 they can never say you didn't offer the proper job, if you have time quote 3 can be retrofit of heating controls to bring the system up t standard next year.

 

[Foodface]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

 

[chris watkins]

Yeah that's what I've decided on, I'm going to submit the quote without and then with. I've estimated it'll cost an additional 600 ish to zone the system (not including electrical labour) and I'm going to stress the regs and importance of zoning in the quote, but my main worry is that the chances are that someone is gonna just undercut me by not mentioning the zoning issue.

I hope I get the job as I need the money big time.

Just make sure that you have it in writing that you explained to them the requirements under part L for full controls & that due to the costs they have chosen not to have this work carried out. They are the one's breaking the Law but you as an expert must be seen to be informing them of there duty's under the Law.

 

[Foodface]

I've submitted it now (took me all morning), explained the need for Part L and how much I estimate it would cost extra. The quote was roughly 3,500 without as there is no existing heating system in the property so it would push it well in 4,000 mark. If they opt not too then I'll get it in writing on a pre job agreement, with a signature. It's tricky this stuff, especially considering the extra wiring involved (I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

 

[chris watkins]

(I somehow doubt customers will be willing to pay 1000 plus for all singing and dancing wireless zone rad valves). Genuinely just wish the manufacturers would simplify the problem for us all, sooner rather than later.

Sorry but don't understand why you need a sing / dancing system & can't see how the manufacturer could make things any simpler, we already have plug & play controls systems.

 

[Foodface]

I'm not saying you need an all dancing system, just saying that it's more attractive to fit a wireless system when you are not a qualified electrician (which many people aren't).

Personally I think the manufacturers could integrate zoning valves into the boilers and make the "plug and play" options more assessable for the new regulations. As previously explained that some of the plug and play devices only come in pairs, which means you would have to buy two sets of controllers/receivers (or more) to zone. Just saying they could make it easier and more assessable which would also cut down the task of getting the customers on board, as the they would have no option if everything was integrated into the boiler already.

Just my opinion.

 

[chris watkins]

Most of us are not qualified electrician but have had training & would say most are competent to work on heating control systems. Can I suggest the Honeywell 1day training course & some reading. An understanding of electrical control systems is now a very important part of any heating engineer work nowday's & it is only going to get more complex with time.

P.S. some boiler manufactures have incorporated controls within there system boilers but this has not proven popular due to the increase in pipework required & the in-flexibility of system design.
In this game things that appear to be simple rarely are, which may be a good thing for those that know & a bad thing for those that don't.

 

[peteheat]

If the boiler manufacturers build in the zoning systems it makes their product less flexible, it also leads to the installer and home owner being held to ransom by the manufacturers system should it break down or have faults in the software.

We did use a boiler where all controls were managed by the boiler motherboard, the theory was great in reality it was a disaster, it took them 5 years to iron out most of the software problems (an ongoing project).

As far as anyone who used the system is concerned their is nothing like a boiler that does its job of producing the heat and we remain in control of how the heat is distributed, it is much easier to replace a faulty programmer even for another make / model than it is to change out the boiler.

It is easier for all concerned to be able to add or subtract zone valves, TRV's, thermostats as needed by each individual job instead of trying to make a pre-set / pre-programmed boiler do all the jobs needed some of which it may not have been designed to do.