Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement Systems

[doitmyself]

I'm currently pricing up a complete new installation and really want the job. Informed the customer of the "zoning issue" ... The house is a small two up two down

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

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[peteheat]

I can't see what the problem is.

The advice given to "rodders" by DCLG (and you can't get closer to the horse's mouth than that) is:

It is only heating systems in new dwellings and complete new heating systems (including pipework) in existing dwellings that should be provided with two heating zones - and then only if cost-effective.

If zoning the house will increase the cost by a third, £3k to £4k, it is obviously not cost-effective as the additional outlay will never be recouped in lower heating bills.

​

Depends on what you think is value for money.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

Customers are better informed today and tend to know that heat rises and ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes, I doubt there are two rooms in my house that have the same optimum temperature to the occupiers liking, we are all individuals and modern heating controls allow us to have the comfort levels that suit us.

 

[Leo21]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

 

[chris watkins]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

O for god sake let's go back to floor standing O/F boilers, as they lasted for ever.

 

[Leo21]

Love to. I wonder if you were to do a cost comparison between the life span of a floor stander to a modern boiler what would be best. One lasts thirty years and guzzles gas, or a modern condenser with a life span of six to ten years.

 

[chris watkins]

Don't wonder Leo21, work it out & let us know.
To start you off, 'A' rated = 90+% efficient - 65% O/F floor stander = 25% more efficient x average heating & hot water fuel cost for 10 years.
Look forward to your post.

 

[Leo21]

Will do when I get a mo, how's the kitchen hunting going?

 

[peteheat]

What about the reliability factor, and cost of repair to these extra zone valves and room stats. Modern ones don't seem that reliable, especially r/f stuff. If you get a failure within say five years the cost of repair would surely negate any fuel saving. And iff the zone valves are under floor, they'll have to be found before repair can be made. All adding up the expense.

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

 

[Leo21]

Re: Central Heating Zones - New & Replacement System

We use Sauter controls and zone valves 5 years no quibble warranty.

Obviously plan the system, why put a zone or any other service valve under the floor where it can't be reached?

On a drop system with solid floors, other wise you'd have to double up the runs. I agree it would be bad practice. Again money talks and they,ll get fitted where evers easier for the the installer.

 

[doitmyself]

Depends on what you think is value for money.

Cost-effectiveness and value for money are not necessarily the same thing.

First you are assuming that energy costs will not rise to a level where customers need to squeeze every BTU out of the fuel they buy and use it in the most efficient way possible, as someone in the renewable energy business I think that is about now.

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Customers ... ask why the radiators upstairs are providing heat when it is not needed.

Isn't that why upstairs rads are provided with TRVs (which should be set to a lower temperature in any case)?

Then we have the comfort levels we all like in our homes

Agreed.

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

 

[peteheat]

The problem is that those who set the rules are only interested in one thing: reducing fuel consumption. How much it costs the punter is irrelevant.

Could you possibly be biased?

Zoning only works if the zones are properly separated, which means keeping all doors closed except when entering or leaving a room. There is no point zoning a house which keeps room doors open all the time (obvious cases excepted) as the upstairs rooms will get heated from downstairs, irrespective of what the TRVs are doing.

Biased?

I don't think so as I am also OFTEC and RGI (Irish version of Gas Safe) I also propose the same zoning on wood pellet, wood gasifiers etc as I do for fossil fuels, the only difference is for UFH where I use a stat in each room.

We fit the system, advise the customer as to the best way to use it, after that they must do their bit.

 

[mickie]

if you're installing a new heating system it shouldnt be too hard to fit an extra stat and zone valve, anyway i was only informed when gas safe came out to another installers job and said he hadnt zoned the floors and that he should have, if i hadnt heard that story how should i have found out?..their will be thousands of installers that dont know and will continue to not zone anything untill gas safe come out to inspect the property and tell him that he is contributing more to the worlds demise than america, china and Russia put together..

fix it or get a bigger fine than the banks miss selling you ppi..
i was just talking about this the other day, how they care more about gas installers fitting room stats than they do, cyclists being killed by trucks..

i guess they just think at least that dead girl wont be using up the earths resources anymore.

i dont quite know what an extra room thermostat will do if every radiator has a thermostat on it, which turns the radiator off when the room is up to the desired temperature, maybe the room stat knows something the radiator stat doesnt ?

 

[Leo21]

What if you used those digital Trv,s, you then would be technically zoning every room.