Communal Rising main water pipe

[Pipeman222]

Hi all.

Doing a house renovation here at my flat that I owed for about 20 years have decided finally that time to spend some money on myself and live normally.

Basically knocked out larder cupboards and walls making a kitchen diner finally got permission from the freeholders that took about 1 year alone.

Behind one of the Larder cupboards there is as follows 4 pipes on the wall going up and down
These are down services from the the roof of the block of flats a water tank used to be attached next to where this main is.

There is one pipe this is what the problem is about 60 cm away from those pipes in other words in the actual kitchen its 28m copper and above it there is a join to about 35m copper.

At first we believed this was the down service but after realising it appears to be the water that is pumping up through all the flats into their water tanks and then into the main water tank on the roof. SoI have a water pipe in my property that does not serve me there is no stopcock at all within my property yet I am told I am responsible for it.

We want to re-route this pipe back to the wall.
Contacted Thames Water and they seemed quite confused about this pipe but did indeed find it on thier system.

What would be the best way to tackle this they told me that you could possibly try to turn this feed off from the ground but surely it's getting pumped up due to gravity? So would you not need to turn the pump off as well where would that be? Other option would be to freeze or to use an Aladdin clamp and basically to re-route the pipe back to the wall is there any issue removing this pipe I'm presuming the water will still be able to travel up the bends being about 60 cm back to the wall all and then out again 60 cm in?

Obviously for the duration of time there'll be no water being pumped up to the main storage tank I presume this will not affect the properties with the water tank in the house because the main tank upstairs has about 10000 l. And we only need 1h.

Happy to take pictures but meanwhile just wanted to pick everyone's brains and I was wondering if anyone has experienced this sort of job and are there any worries at all?

I'm pretty worried about cutting the pipe using an aladin clamp and freezing it because if something goes wrong there is no stopcock within my property to turn it off and water damage could be totally catastrophic

 

[Pipeman222]

I was looking at the pipe size the bigger pipe drops from the ceiling into the tee marked in blue it then would have fed your flat via the branch with the stop valve on, it then reduces down marked in red this would normally denote the supply comes from above it wouldn't increase in size going up , either way once the main is identified and isolated it can be rerouted I would be asking for confirmation they are fully insured and a method statement of what and how they intend to tackle the job before committing
Regards kop

So regarding the post which was quite scary regarding once you opened the stopcock again downstairs and the power of water flushing up the dirt and damages everyone's tank's which will potentially be a claim of over probably £100000 provided the person has public liability insurance should they try to flip liability onto me me we are covered and obviously just proceed with works would you say this is sensible?

Also I can see a lot of you out of London but is there anyone you can recommend to do this I actually even called Pimlico Plumbers and they said they don't touch anything communal.

The other guy that came seems convinced this is coming from the ground feeding the actual tank you guys not think this is accurate don't forget the water tank will need to get water somehow the tank on the roof the big tank its massive.

I'm probably happy to use him but I also want to hear from everyone else and if anyone can recommend anyone who has done this before and is very experienced please let me know and I right in thinking that insurance company will cover us?
The last thing I want is to do the rerouting and then have to sell the flat to pay them!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Commercial plumber but make sure the building owners / management are happy for you to mess around with there system/ shut everyone’s water down for a day

 

[king of pipes]

This is a commercial job and I would be using a company who specialises in that type of work. It should work something like this,
1- A surveyor visits your property to access what work needs to be done and if its achievable what materials, tooling and labour is needed ? What work needs to be done to gain control of the water isolation. If chlorination and flush of the system is needed ? A Lab test sample taken and a report produced once work is complete?
2 - Identify how this building is supplied with water ? who is responsible for the supply? access to the isolation of said supply?
3 - Contact would be made with all the People affected by this work ? The building services manager , The water company this would include a site visit by them and check isolation is possible by the external stopcock ?, The tenants effected by the work involved their and contact details ?
4 - A detailed estimate produced of the work to be done and a projected costing for that work
5 - A risk assessment and method statement put in place ? - details of how and when this work will take place.
6 - Once this has been done a period of time will be needed for these plans to be finalised and any concerns addressed.
7 - Once this is all in place then the work can go ahead
So as you see there's alot of work to be done before you even touch the pipework and any short cuts taken you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution if something goes drastically wrong . Regards kop

 

[Ric2013]

I'm struggling with this up/down issue.

A number of us seem to be basing the 'it must be a pipe coming down' theory on the size of the pipe. I'm happy to accept that it reduces as it falls if you say it does. Being an old building, it's entirely possible a pipe has been repurposed and the direction of flow reversed and it's likely that the narrowest bore for a former gravity distributing pipe is more than sufficient for a mains or pumped pressure pipe going up.

There are better ways of checking the direction of flow than the pipe size. For one, if you are able to use that stopcock that isolates the left branch you could test the pressure against your mains or pumped pressure on that floor of the building and compare it with the metres head you would have from the loft cistern to your floor. This would certainly be a start.

 

[Pipeman222]

This is a commercial job and I would be using a company who specialises in that type of work. It should work something like this,
1- A surveyor visits your property to access what work needs to be done and if its achievable what materials, tooling and labour is needed ? What work needs to be done to gain control of the water isolation. If chlorination and flush of the system is needed ? A Lab test sample taken and a report produced once work is complete?
2 - Identify how this building is supplied with water ? who is responsible for the supply? access to the isolation of said supply?
3 - Contact would be made with all the People affected by this work ? The building services manager , The water company this would include a site visit by them and check isolation is possible by the external stopcock ?, The tenants effected by the work involved their and contact details ?
4 - A detailed estimate produced of the work to be done and a projected costing for that work
5 - A risk assessment and method statement put in place ? - details of how and when this work will take place.
6 - Once this has been done a period of time will be needed for these plans to be finalised and any concerns addressed.
7 - Once this is all in place then the work can go ahead
So as you see there's alot of work to be done before you even touch the pipework and any short cuts taken you are leaving yourself wide open for prosecution if something goes drastically wrong . Regards kop

Meanwhile my house is a building site and we can't fit the kitchen. Living out of my bedroom.
Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

 

[Pipeman222]

I'm struggling with this up/down issue.

A number of us seem to be basing the 'it must be a pipe coming down' theory on the size of the pipe. I'm happy to accept that it reduces as it falls if you say it does. Being an old building, it's entirely possible a pipe has been repurposed and the direction of flow reversed and it's likely that the narrowest bore for a former gravity distributing pipe is more than sufficient for a mains or pumped pressure pipe going up.

There are better ways of checking the direction of flow than the pipe size. For one, if you are able to use that stopcock that isolates the left branch you could test the pressure against your mains or pumped pressure on that floor of the building and compare it with the metres head you would have from the loft cistern to your floor. This would certainly be a start.

I've examined the building basically there's about six of these pipes going in a line and they go through every single flat onto the loft the pipe is 28 m so it's not massive but theres alot of them.
They had to pass up the house because every time they go up a floor they fill a water tank which was sat right next to it. In the loft you have 6 stop cocks on the joists they all lead into the tank then gate valves that allow water to go down and in the tank.

remember the most important thing downstairs upstairs the whole building had no water in the bathroom basically everyone who had a water tank but I continued to have water going through that pipe and it was going at some pace. Remember we went to the loft and we turned the valves

We were confused until another plumber came over and said this is the water going up hence why I continued to have water.

Today we went downstairs and we walked 13 Steps from the lift directly to the little Thames Water hole and every flat seems to have one on the pavement area.

We opened it up and indeed we see a valve
This valve is directly in line with that pipe outside my property in line with the whole buildings pipe

I'm not a plumber but I do think we have found the source.

Now here's my most important question I don't want to turn it and start anything unless I know for a fact with the plumbers public liability should the crap hit the fan he is liable so all this talk about rubbish going up the pipe and destroying the water tanks or 10'000 l of water crashing down and causing maybe 5m of damage do I make sure he's got public liability and do the work some people are saying don't worry some people are really making me worry.


I think we found the valve now I just want to make sure the person doing it is properly insured perhaps we should just do the work that's what the insurance is for ?

 

[Ric2013]

so all this talk about rubbish going up the pipe and destroying the water tanks

Not destroying them. Just a risk of potential debris from the pipe going into the tank. Provided the plumber flushes the modified pipe through correctly such that any contaminated water does not go into the tank, this shouldn't be a problem.

Regaring living from a bedroom, I lived through a period when I had a ladder to go upstairs and no ground floor (I had a soil floor in one room and floor joists without boards in the other), so I've lived through this. You have my sympathy, but do be reassured: it will end eventually.

 

[Pipeman222]

Not destroying them. Just a risk of potential debris from the pipe going into the tank. Provided the plumber flushes the modified pipe through correctly such that any contaminated water does not go into the tank, this shouldn't be a problem.

Regaring living from a bedroom, I lived through a period when I had a ladder to go upstairs and no ground floor (I had a soil floor in one room and floor joists without boards in the other), so I've lived through this. You have my sympathy, but do be reassured: it will end eventually.

Yeah absolutely don't worry I am quite hard skinned but it is an inconvenience.
Basically do I just make sure he is insured correctly he is going to be touching everything he's going to be turning everything and I get a method statement from him and we just do the work? I am responsible for the pipe it's technically mine

 

[king of pipes]

Meanwhile my house is a building site and we can't fit the kitchen. Living out of my bedroom.
Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

Sorry but it doesn't work that way everyone is out to cover their own arse and avoid being sued should something got drastically wrong , end of the day it's your choice go with whom you feel comfortable with . I understand your frustration but you asked for advice we give it to you foc , if you choose to ignore it then as the saying goes expect the best but prepare for the worst because if they can lay blame even the slightest thing on you then there's a claim I wish you every success and I'm sure it will work out 😊 kop

 

[Chuck]

Here's what I think is probably plausible I make sure the person is heavily insured I get them to write down what they going to do this is a good idea but it's going to take about 1 year the only thing I care about is obviously liability switching over to myself but if the plumber is insured and he does the job then I am surely covered for any potential issues?

About two hundred years ago someone wrote "A man who is is own lawyer has a fool for a client." and it's still so very true today.

King of Pipes knows what he's talking about. This is a job for commercial professionals.

 

[Ric2013]

In fairness, I'd be confused if I were the OP. KOP has given good advice (which won't take anywhere near a year), but what actually differentiates a firm that specialises in these from a firm that doesn't, and how does the OP know if the firm is any good? What trade membership/approval scheme or qualifications should the OP be looking for? What questions should he ask the prospective contractor?

If the OP chooses a reliable and trusted firm with a reputation to lose and that is insured for this kind of work, although the OP may be liable, it would seem likely that any counterclaim against the firm would be settled should there be an issue. It is an interesting question though - if a plumber working on a customer's house and burns down the street, who do the neighbours sue - the customer or the plumber?

The water undertaker may not be interested in a formal site visit - they may just send some guy under subcontract to label the isolator and that would be it. The building services manager may not be very au fait with this either otherwise the best course would probably be for the building manager to instruct the work and charge the OP.

I think the surveyor is a good start, so what does the OP need to look for in a surveyor? RICS? I'm just a bit unclear on how the OP would go from #28 into practical action.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

In fairness, I'd be confused if I were the OP. KOP has given good advice (which won't take anywhere near a year), but what actually differentiates a firm that specialises in these from a firm that doesn't, and how does the OP know if the firm is any good? What trade membership/approval scheme or qualifications should the OP be looking for? What questions should he ask the prospective contractor?

If the OP chooses a reliable and trusted firm with a reputation to lose and that is insured for this kind of work, although the OP may be liable, it would seem likely that any counterclaim against the firm would be settled should there be an issue. It is an interesting question though - if a plumber working on a customer's house and burns down the street, who do the neighbours sue - the customer or the plumber?

The water undertaker may not be interested in a formal site visit - they may just send some guy under subcontract to label the isolator and that would be it. The building services manager may not be very au fait with this either otherwise the best course would probably be for the building manager to instruct the work and charge the OP.

I think the surveyor is a good start, so what does the OP need to look for in a surveyor? RICS? I'm just a bit unclear on how the OP would go from #28 into practical action.

It actually could take a while as you need to get approval from the other properties to turn the main off to the whole place for a day then you have to provide temporary toilets etc

 

[Ric2013]

It actually could take a while as you need to get approval from the other properties to turn the main off to the whole place for a day then you have to provide temporary toilets etc

True, I suppose it depends how many other properties are involved and how helpful/obstructive the neighbours are feeling.

 

[king of pipes]

Post the job on a mybuilder.com they provide access to fully vetted tradesmen including plumbers and the work is fully insured if you choose my builder plus, kop

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Post the job on a mybuilder.com they provide access to fully vetted tradesmen including plumbers and the work is fully insured if you choose my builder plus, kop

Not for commercial works mate

 

[king of pipes]

I'm out on this one Shaunie 👍 think we've covered it

 

[Pipeman222]

So it isnt a mains water supply at all and you only need to give 24h notice .
When you turn it off it wont affect anyones water as this water goes up into the tank then there is a down service. So theyll have water.
The work only takes about 1h max specially if you pre cut and make ready.

I spoke to my builder to go and email his insurance company and tell them exactly what he's going to so turning a valve outside the property and then modifying the ***unal pipe
And getting it in writing that he is covered.

Then I'll do one of two things just go ahead as he is insured and has it in writing or email the freeholders asking for for advice on the situation.and confirmation what were about to do. Meanwhile I'll probably end up losing my builder if I keep delaying this..

Regarding commercial plumbers I've spoken to a lot nobody really wants to take the job on and even called up Pimlico Plumbers and they said they don't take anything communal..

I feel stuck some what I'm hoping to come across someone that has dealt with this exact scenario in the past I can't be the only person.
I would love to hear someone say don't worry about it I've done this before something like that but looks like no one has so far.

Does anyone know how this down service water tank system works exactly Thames Water seemed a little bit shocked that I have a pipe in my house that doesn't serve me without a a stopcock.

Like I say it looks like I have found the valve directly outside 3 Floors down in line with this pipe about a metre in the pavement.

My first point of call going to be my builder make sure he's specifically insured for this.

I take every piece of advice you have given here ultimately I need to make the decision.

I would love someone who has experience doing this has the right insurance take this on

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Your contradicting your self the tank will be fed with mains water

Also the work will take longer than an hour as your going to have to solder it no pushfit

Also your builder isn’t capable of doing this work

 

[snowhead]

I stopped posting but kept viewing as I guessed how this thread would run.

However, given the information since I last posted I would say the position is as below;

Each flat has it's own dedicated mains supply to the kitchen sink from the stop taps found outside and this is the supply being used for everything in the flat that's the subject of this thread.

Additionally there will be an extra stop tap for a feed direct to the Landlord / Freeholders tank in / on the roof.
From that tank there will be several drops to the flats below, reducing in size as they go.
These will have been cold feed to the cylinder, cold for the bathroom taps and W.C

The cut off bent over pipe will be the vent from the old cylinder and it would then seem most likely that the other adjacent pipes are vents from cylinders in the flats below.

Final post.

 

[Pipeman222]

I stopped posting but kept viewing as I guessed how this thread would run.

However, given the information since I last posted I would say the position is as below;

Each flat has it's own dedicated mains supply to the kitchen sink from the stop taps found outside and this is the supply being used for everything in the flat that's the subject of this thread.

Additionally there will be an extra stop tap for a feed direct to the Landlord / Freeholders tank in / on the roof.
From that tank there will be several drops to the flats below, reducing in size as they go.
These will have been cold feed to the cylinder, cold for the bathroom taps and W.C

The cut off bent over pipe will be the vent from the old cylinder and it would then seem most likely that the other adjacent pipes are vents from cylinders in the flats below.

Final post.

I sent you a private message but looks like you're onto something however the only thing you didn't explain was the big pipe that's in the way that is not connected to the kitchen main.

Am I right to think it's a seperate main going up to the tank. Remember when I turned off the the gate valves they had no water in their bathroom but this dead legs on the left continued to continued to flush water .
I'm also speaking to a local plumber but I want to be overly sure as nobody really knows exactly what this is my builder as well of course you're right it's not really a job for him..

I appreciate it was your last post but as you can see it's not totally resolved yet so you kind of said the man's coming in from the kitchen only but this pipe why is it live.
The other pipe was the kink obviously isn't in the way so that can just stay like that.

Are these still need advice.
If you prefer not to post I would be grateful if you contact me privately
If you can pinpoint this and solve the mystery I'm happy to send you over some money I'm serious

 

[king of pipes]

I would expect one of those gate valves on the big cold water storage tank on the roof would isolate the pipe you need to reroute? I would guess that pipe was a cold feed to the removed hot water cylinder maybe something like a Elson type cylinder? Google it ? , as your neighbours still have these installed that's why there's still water being used through that pipe, the way to check is trace the pipe back to the tank if possible ? you know which gate valve isolates the bathroom cold supply so it's not that one ok ! if there's another gate valve close to that turn that off ? you will need to run a hot tap for a good few minutes in a neighbours property or rig a hose up connected to the branch hanging down via the stop tap in your property into a drain you may well find you eventually gain control, it's not unusual to find these gate valves partially pass water even when fully closed sometimes this is manageable with proper planning , having the replacement pipe pre made and fitted as much as possible allowing the last couple of joints to be done really helps, I would honestly advise using a crimp machine and the appropriate fittings avoiding any hot work and if there's a little water then it's not a issue as long as it's manageable . Regards Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

I would expect one of those gate valves on the big cold water storage tank on the roof would isolate the pipe you need to reroute? I would guess that pipe was a cold feed to the removed hot water cylinder maybe something like a Elson type cylinder? Google it ? , as your neighbours still have these installed that's why there's still water being used through that pipe, the way to check is trace the pipe back to the tank if possible ? you know which gate valve isolates the bathroom cold supply so it's not that one ok ! if there's another gate valve close to that turn that off ? you will need to run a hot tap for a good few minutes in a neighbours property or rig a hose up connected to the branch hanging down via the stop tap in your property into a drain you may well find you eventually gain control, it's not unusual to find these gate valves partially pass water even when fully closed sometimes this is manageable with proper planning , having the replacement pipe pre made and fitted as much as possible allowing the last couple of joints to be done really helps, I would honestly advise using a crimp machine and the appropriate fittings avoiding any hot work and if there's a little water then it's not a issue as long as it's manageable . Regards Kop

Hi I close all the gate valves and I ran that little branch on the left for half an hour.
I traced that particular pipe up and found the particular stopcock but I also turned off the gate valve where that lead to if that makes sense.

Is it not plausible that they're getting the main water from the pipe I'm trying to re-route?

 

[king of pipes]

Its not impossible I suppose ? but it's wouldn't be as it was installed and there would be a alteration done to redirect the mains water into the down service pipework usually at the tank if its untouched then its less likely I would say , you need control of that water if its tank or mains? ideally the mains, get the plumber involved to get on to Thames water sometimes you need to not take no for a answer . Kop

 

[Pipeman222]

Hopefully this picture helps
. It's a horrible Pipe that's 60y old it looks rusted and it's my responsibility is dangerous as you can see it's sticking out about 60 cm into the kitchen totally in the way it needs to be rerouted.
I've got permission to do the Works.
Hopefully my previous post made sense when I was in the loft we turned off the stop cocks that was the Down service . We tested all above and below and they didnt have water meanwhile on the left area of this pipe we have water flushing out for half an hour now it doesn't Close anymore so we had to get a special fitting.

The fact the water never stopped made me call another plumber by the way I had three plumber's out here all of them gas registered.

Two out of the three said it's down service they were wrong one of them said is an old gas pipe.
Then I got another one and he told me this is the water going up into the tank in the loft which makes total sense I don't have a tank system anymore it was taken out before I got here.

You are legally allowed to turn water off as long as we notify the people 24 h notice.

The last guy who came seems to know his stuff he said he's done quite a few of these but obviously I want to check because this type is causing us a lot of problems.

Hoping to hear some positive news what's your thoughts now that you seen the picture

Good evening everybody.
I'm hoping some of you very good people out there will remember this post of mine.

Here is what the situation is.
Decided not to freeze as it was too risky we had to repair the valve on the roof which was directly underneath this pipe.
It took the freeholder about 1 year to fix it absolutely Madness but don't ask.
They've eventually replaced it.
If you remember I was a little bit confused what this actually was because I have turned some Gate valves on the storage tank and for 25 minutes the water did not stop.
Well we now know exactly what this is "it is the town service which feed the hot water cylinders"
I have highlighted this post as it contains the photograph for quick review.
Have you can see my property does not have the water tank. Hence why this needs to be rerouted.


Well I'm leaving it a bit late but tomorrow is the faithful day.

The section of the joint appears to be 35 ml imperial I think we're going to go and work off that. We have a soldering joint 35 ml reducing to 28 ml. We also have the compression 35ml going to 28 mil.
The section at the concrete and the section at the bottom below the concrete would it be ok to use soldering joints or do these need to be compression? Yes I am using a plumber fully insured he has initially said soldering joint all the way?
I have taken notes to thoroughly clean the sections as somebody has also advised that it can damage the risers beneath me they have also said to be careful it does not crack in the concrete that's going to be quite a nightmare.


I suppose I'm a little bit nervous even though he has insurance. And I would just like to know the best methods to reroute.
And any other tips along the way that I can tell the plumber tomorrow morning.
He says he has plenty of commercial experience and he's done this many times before but obviously another question I want to have is what happens if something goes wrong and a crack does appear in the middle of the concrete.
That will be quite difficult to rectify won't it?
I know I'm worrying before nothing happened but sometimes it's good to have that mindset so you can be prepared for it.

It will be wonderful to hear from you all again thank you very much

 

[Pipeman222]

Hello everyone unfortunately this is not been resolved yet.
Long story short the valve was not repaired on that day it took another 6 months and I lost the plumber who was interested many plumbers are not interested in doing the job so I found another one
He came he turned the valve and then eventually hot water started coming out he stopped it and said he has to investigate further and that it could be some sort of a back feed and he's not sure and now he's also disappeared.

This is very frustrating God only knows what I would do if there was a seriously on this pipe there is no control in my property.

Pimlico Plumbers do not do communal many other companies have disappeared after I asked them for insurance because it's a requirement from the freeholder.

I've posted the job in the job section as well but I really just want some further advice and if anyone is at all able to take this on anywhere in the country please let me know and I will pay travel costs along with your time rate

We are really looking for help here