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Discuss Electrical fault finding? in the Gas Engineers Forum area at Plumbers Forums

Ah. Good old British wiring where there is a fuse you can remove and where there is such a concept as polarity. Things I miss about England...

The only problem with 2-pole testers is they are (probably) absolutely useless in places such as the flat where I am currently living where switching is often on the neutral, it is all single-core cable in conduit, some of the earth cables don't actually go anywhere, and choice of cable colour does not necessarily follow standard practice. Either it's a very long lead to a known earth or neutral or you have to double-check any test with a death stick or finger flick technique.

Probably a professional electrician would have ways around these problems.
 
Ah. Good old British wiring where there is a fuse you can remove and where there is such a concept as polarity. Things I miss about England...

The only problem with 2-pole testers is they are (probably) absolutely useless in places such as the flat where I am currently living where switching is often on the neutral, it is all single-core cable in conduit, some of the earth cables don't actually go anywhere, and choice of cable colour does not necessarily follow standard practice. Either it's a very long lead to a known earth or neutral or you have to double-check any test with a death stick or finger flick technique.

Probably a professional electrician would have ways around these problems.
Wouldn’t have thought neutral switching would matter that much, as you test L-N, L-E and N-E, so as long as it’s all dead, wouldn’t matter?
 
Wouldn’t have thought neutral switching would matter that much, as you test L-N, L-E and N-E, so as long as it’s all dead, wouldn’t matter?
True, but if you also find the green/yellow cable isn't earthed because the sparkie ran out of cables in the nearest junction, then you can't test L-E when the circuit is isolated which leaves you only with a L-N test. A L-N test does not prove the L is no longer live as you might have just isolated the neutral.
 
True, but if you also find the green/yellow cable isn't earthed because the sparkie ran out of cables in the nearest junction, then you can't test L-E when the circuit is isolated which leaves you only with a L-N test. A L-N test does not prove the L is no longer live as you might have just isolated the neutral.

Thats pure carp.

ALL cables carrying 230v should be connected to the earth / cpc - there are no exceptions.
 
Oh the wiring in these flats is worse than that!

I recently decided to replace the emergency light which no longer worked. The emergency light takes its live and neutral from behind a bulkhead(?) wall lamp fitting which, in turn is fed from behind the light switch below. Faults found while doing this:

1. The wall lamp is 1970s and predates the requirement for an earth in Italy, and so has no earth terminal, but it would have been easy enough to fit one to the metal casing when the place was re-wired in 1993. This had not been done, but there was a green and yellow cable run to the fitting as if the intention was there. The earth cable that was run (but not connected) to the bulkhead light fitting was, at the opposite end, connected to another cable serving another similar lamp but not to the green/yellow cable run to the main junction box.

2. The single core phase and neutral cables run to the emergency light were visible on the wall without conduit. In fairness, they were only exposed for a couple of inches, but still, this strikes me as wrong (although it is common to see a short section of exposed single-core single insulated cables at electricity meters, so perhaps this is not considered a fault over here).

3. The green/yellow cable from the lightwitch to the main junction box was being used as a neutral. As the bulkhead lamps have their neutral switched at a remote relay, there was no permanent neutral from which to feed the emergency light, so what was clearly intended to be an earth endeded up being misappropriated.

4. The green/yellow cable was identified in the main junction box as being a neutral by being joined to the main neutral terminal via a short section of blue cable. The joint was twist and tape (not a marriage joint - literally twist and tape). The joint at the lightswitch junction box was similar, but the cable's actual nature was not identified by any kind of coloured tab or sheathing.

5. The bulkhead light itself is of a design that a quite elaborate mechnism involving levers and moving parts to allow for removal of the glass cover and the lampholder design could easily short the casing and the lamp terminals together should a set screw come loose. To add to these inherent design limitations, it was only fixed to the wall by a single screw because drilling two holes was too much like hard work, just to make a fault developing a little more likely.

6. ES type bulbholder connected with neutral to inside pin.

7. The entire installation was signed off as a compliant installation by a registered electrician in 1993. He was previously a waiter. I expect the hotel was glad to see him leave.

I have corrected some of the above faults myself as the waiting time for a local electrician seems to be about 3 years.
 
Thats pure carp.

ALL cables carrying 230v should be connected to the earth / cpc - there are no exceptions.

What about class 2 fittings I believe eg all plastic ?
 
The cpc should run continuously back to the fuseboard.
so if the light or fan is class 2 then turn make sure it’s not connected but accessible or mug sparks like me can’t test them later 😁
Am I right in thinking that, in the UK, a new Class II light fitting should still have a CPC available to it (but that it would not be considered more than a recommendation on an EICR should the CPC be missing on an existing installation)?
 
Am I right in thinking that, in the UK, a new Class II light fitting should still have a CPC available to it (but that it would not be considered more than a recommendation on an EICR should the CPC be missing on an existing installation)?


Well, the requirement to have a cpc at each point has been in the regs for quite a few versions of the regs so its a C2 ......... problem is too many numptie DIYers, kitchen & bathroom fitters don't realise this and leave issues behind them
 
It was explained to me: if you provide a cpc (even though class 2 not required), it will protect the cable and end user/someone who may cut through the cable if done live? So there‘s still a path for current to flow other than person?
 
It was explained to me: if you provide a cpc (even though class 2 not required), it will protect the cable and end user/someone who may cut through the cable if done live? So there‘s still a path for current to flow other than person?
True, and in a typical modern UK installation, you'll be using twin and earth, so why not do it? It won't serve an actual purpose if the installation is made from single core cables run in conduit, however, which is sometimes done in the UK, but you'd need to find light switches that do not have exposed metal screws.

Well, the requirement to have a cpc at each point has been in the regs for quite a few versions of the regs so its a C2 ......... problem is too many numptie DIYers, kitchen & bathroom fitters don't realise this and leave issues behind them
I'm assuming it's common to find old unearthed installations extended using twin and earth, with the earth just not connected to anything, much like the bright spark over here decided to do?
 
It was explained to me: if you provide a cpc (even though class 2 not required), it will protect the cable and end user/someone who may cut through the cable if done live? So there‘s still a path for current to flow other than person?

If it’s connected one end yes
 

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