Flow rate / regs query

[Gasmk1]

sounds like you have very low water pressure you could fit a salamader pump to the inlet of the boiler these will give up to 12 L/min Anchor Pumps

 

[chris watkins]

We asked copious times before installing right back to the initial visit in Dec 14 the first time we looked in to it about the pressure cos we like a good powerful shower and were happy with the one we had. It was us that specifically queried this. It was queried again before the Dec 15 install by us and we were told it would be fine.
We thought they were installing something best suited to our needs. I don't know why they went with what they did.
From the little I know and comments from you guys, seems it would have been best to install a more efficient boiler in the same type of system.

Off to Trading Standards with any supporting evidence you have then. If you asked so much about the pressure it should be documented some where.
Why did you ask so many times, you must have had your doubts about installing a combi system?

PS. You may be able to have a special type of pump which is allowed to be installed directly onto the mains (this is limited by Law to 12L/M) but a descent plumber with their Water Regulation Ticket will need to confirm all is suitable either way your shower will never be nor was it ever going to be as it was before you had the boiler changed.

As above or I prefer the Stuart Turner type & one with accumulation might provide better results if you go down that route.

 

[Chalked]

Hi everyone, thanks, just catching up on comments. Page 59 - water flow rate recorded as "low" nothing else. No figure recorded but I imagine it was 7 as follow up visit showed after our complaint. We asked copious times before installing right back to the initial visit in Dec 14 the first time we looked in to it about the pressure cos we like a good powerful shower and were happy with the one we had. It was us that specifically queried this. It was queried again before the Dec 15 install by us and we were told it would be fine. We are an old council block built in 60s. It seems like a newer boiler would have just been better (it needed to be replaced as had been here sometime). We thought they were installing something best suited to our needs. I don't know why they went with what they did. From the little I know and comments from you guys, seems it would have been best to install a more efficient boiler in the same type of system.
One other thing I forgot to mention the bar on the boiler itself is supposed to be between 0.9 and 1.7. When they left after the installation it measured 0.7. We have managed to get a bit more water in by opening the valves so it now sits just above 1bar. Hope this makes sense!

Even though they are not perfect. A combi is a very efficient way of producing hot water. The Vaillant boiler you have is also an efficient boiler.
It's just your msins pressure is a bit low to perform how it should.

 

[JD1]

We have already reported to trading standards (via citizens advice bureau as we were told we can't do it ourselves) but that was a dead end.
We have reported to the consumer ombudsman but they are under no obligation to respond. They have ignored all 3 email attempts the ombudsman made to contact them to discuss it.
We have written to them 3 times, their own complaints policy states complex matters will be dealt with in 10 working days (if you are being generous, you can say this is complex) It's been 5 months and they have not engaged at all. No one ever returns our calls. The call centre don't let you speak to anyone.
Going to court is expensive and time consuming but perhaps that is where we'll get to.

We asked so much about the pressure cos the existing boiler and shower set up when we bought the property used a pump.

We have accepted the shower will never be the same but it is literally a dribble.

It's good to know a pump is an option. Just got to get them to come back. It doesn't seem fair someone else picks it up or we pay more to resolve it, it should be their cost in my opinion due to possible misselling and installing a boiler not fit for purpose but I'm not sure we have the energy for much more.

We will look into pump options.

Thanks everyone.

 

[REDSAW]

have you asked your nieghbours if they have a combi?

if so then and theirs works fine, your house may have an incoming mains problem.
contact your water carrier for a free check you could have a scaled lead pipe or collapsed main!

if you had an over-large or two cold water storage tanks in the loft prior, then your area uses stored fresh water due to local reseviour not high enough or mains supply not large enough. then you could fit a mains pump.

 

[Scott_D]

Do the free scheck before you spend hundreds on a pump

 

[JD1]

I also think they failed in duty of care for failing to attend again and measure flow rates. If they had done that we might be in a very different position now.

 

[Riley]

Well not if they believed the flow and pressure were ok. Duty of care goes out the window. Their due diligence should have raised these issues but I am intrigued to know what their readings a year prior were

 

[Scott_D]

Im guessing you had other quotes?
Did they quote for a combi?

 

[jtsplumbing]

sounds like you have very low water pressure you could fit a salamader pump to the inlet of the boiler these will give up to 12 L/min Anchor Pumps

Just fitted one of there pumps Stuart & Turner again 12lts can be fitted directly onto water main and is fully approved by WRAS could be is only solution and quite a good price from them.

 

[REDSAW]

easy resolve providing all the facts and inspections starting with the basics are there!!
boiler filters clogged?

 

[Chalked]

I think the op may be fishing for us to condemn the install. Or say the flow rate is to do with the installer. Tio give them ammunition to prosecute.
I think a combi wasn't the best idea. But the lack of performance is due to low flow pressure. This is something out of the instzllers control ( unless pumping) .

 

[chris watkins]

I think the op may be fishing for us to condemn the install. Or say the flow rate is to do with the installer. Tio give them ammunition to prosecute.
I think a combi wasn't the best idea. But the lack of performance is due to low flow pressure. This is something out of the instzllers control ( unless pumping) .

I think we have a duty to check & advise don't you ?

Would you really go for a combi if it was to serve a shower on the third floor?
& when if it doesn't work properly run away saying its not down to me its the lack of water pressure ?

 

[Riley]

Totally agree that installer should've taken more care but technically the boiler is doing what it can do. Still can't believe there's a 32 kW in a two bed dlat

 

[kris]

Sounds to me like the installers tested the pressure a year b4 install which they shoulkdve re checked b4 comencing with installing a combi purely because water boards water pressures can change while upgrading pipework underground ,,,, the fact that the combi relies on incoming pressure is a boob as regards not rechecking,,,
Id get a third party in just to measure and check flow rates so you have solid data to produce to the installers to back your claim up, good luck,
Oh the fact that they wrote low on the pressure part on the checklist says it all,

 

[Chalked]

I think we have a duty to check & advise don't you ?

Would you really go for a combi if it was to serve a shower on the third floor?
& when if it doesn't work properly run away saying its not down to me its the lack of water pressure ?

Agree completely. A combi was never the best option. The installer should have advised on the flow rates.

 

[plumben]

By the sounds of it the installer quoted a year prior to install if they took flow rates a year before, If at that time the flow rates where adequate for a Combi then there's possibility of a blocked filter or strainer somewhere or half closed valve, or quite possible that the rest of the flats have converted to Combi's from tanks so theres a lot more strain on the incoming main, I wouldn't jump to blaming the installer straight away, but wouldn't rule out the installer not checking prior to install

 

[JD1]

Thanks all. It's helpful to hear your views from the other side as it were.
We've had a separate company back to do flow rate readings and they record 7 and 5 too. The shower doesn't really stand a chance if the pressure is that low by the time it gets there.
Not really fishing, just my own common sense makes me feel more should have been done a year later but when someone is telling you they are within regs and you can't find those regs anywhere, what are you meant to do?
If they had come back and done their due diligence again, perhaps they would have got the low flow rate and wouldn't have recommended the combi. We'll never know.
We'll get the water company to do the free check.
It's difficult to think that some responsibility doesn't fall to them, why are they ignoring our letters if nothing is wrong, you'd just call and explain. Suggest we check for blocked strainers, or just come back and check that for us. Good customer service to a new customer who has just spent a lot of money would at least suggest something to assist even if you want the customer to pay more and don't accept liability.
It's all very very frustrating.

 

[mfgs]

Totally agree that installer should've taken more care but technically the boiler is doing what it can do. Still can't believe there's a 32 kW in a two bed dlat

32kw isn't a problem. Its only for the hot water side, so no reason a 40kw combi couldn't be fitted as long as the heating side will modulate down low enough. With good pressure and flow then any size of combi can be fitted if you want a nice big shower etc.

 

[mfgs]

Thanks all. It's helpful to hear your views from the other side as it were.
We've had a separate company back to do flow rate readings and they record 7 and 5 too. The shower doesn't really stand a chance if the pressure is that low by the time it gets there.
Not really fishing, just my own common sense makes me feel more should have been done a year later but when someone is telling you they are within regs and you can't find those regs anywhere, what are you meant to do?
If they had come back and done their due diligence again, perhaps they would have got the low flow rate and wouldn't have recommended the combi. We'll never know.
We'll get the water company to do the free check.
It's difficult to think that some responsibility doesn't fall to them, why are they ignoring our letters if nothing is wrong, you'd just call and explain. Suggest we check for blocked strainers, or just come back and check that for us. Good customer service to a new customer who has just spent a lot of money would at least suggest something to assist even if you want the customer to pay more and don't accept liability.
It's all very very frustrating.

I don't know anyone who would fit a combi with the flow rates that you have, it is crazy. There were always going to be issues and an unhappy customer, especially after removing a shower pump as well. They have essentially downgraded your system.

 

[clemda1]

If incoming mains pressure is really poor you may consider getting a mains booster. Speak to the plumbing company about this. You may be able to come to a compromise you buy the booster pump they give a you discount on labour to fit it?

 

[chris watkins]

If incoming mains pressure is really poor you may consider getting a mains booster. Speak to the plumbing company about this. You may be able to come to a compromise you buy the booster pump they give a you discount on labour to fit it?

Given the information presented to us by the OP is one-sided but seems to be supported buy some evidence. Is the your offer a fair one?

Even if they were to supply it, the customer has still got the running costs & future replacement to contend with.

It would seem that they were sold something which was "not fit for purpose" given that the flow rates achieved are below the levels stated in the Water Act & what would be deemed as generally acceptable in normal use.

If warnings of the poor performance of the mains at this height had been issued &/or the option of a booster pump offered to overcome its limitations then the responsibly would have shifted back to the client as we would have discharged our duty of care as an experts.

If the installation of this combi was tested in a court of Law I would be surprised if they were not awarded more than the labour costs to correct it.

I always had a standard clause which read along the lines of "the main water pressure (like interest rates LOL) may rise & fall, the Water Undertakers are only legally obliged to supply a pressure of 1Bar to the street side, given a head pressure of some 10Metres……………."

Working in London with high peek demand & tall buildings it was a absolute necessity to set out what could happen.

(Thames had/have a habit of turning down the water pressure to whole areas to reduce their leak rates, seen a good number of fourth floor flats with combi's installed stop working in the morning just as you might want to take a shower)

 

[clemda1]

Given the information presented to us by the OP is one-sided but seems to be supported buy some evidence. Is the your offer a fair one?

Even if they were to supply it, the customer has still got the running costs & future replacement to contend with.

It would seem that they were sold something which was "not fit for purpose" given that the flow rates achieved are below the levels stated in the Water Act & what would be deemed as generally acceptable in normal use.

If warnings of the poor performance of the mains at this height had been issued &/or the option of a booster pump offered to overcome its limitations then the responsibly would have shifted back to the client as we would have discharged our duty of care as an experts.

If the installation of this combi was tested in a court of Law I would be surprised if they were not awarded more than the labour costs to correct it.

I always had a standard clause which read along the lines of "the main water pressure (like interest rates LOL) may rise & fall, the Water Undertakers are only legally obliged to supply a pressure of 1Bar to the street side, given a head pressure of some 10Metres……………."

Working in London with high peek demand & tall buildings it was a absolute necessity to set out what could happen.

(Thames had/have a habit of turning down the water pressure to whole areas to reduce their leak rates, seen a good number of fourth floor flats with combi's installed stop working in the morning just as you might want to take a shower)

Thanks Chris very informative!
But as you stated initially the information provided is one sided. Without being able to corroborate either parties version, i was only offering an option that may solve the problem in hand.id assume having a decent shower is relatively high on the op's list of priorities and dragging this dispute through the courts will both add further deley and burn a big whole in his pocket. The courts may offer some form of compensation IF and that's a big IF they find in his favour. But ultimately it's going to be a lot of hassle and stress for little outcome. In my humble opinion Negotiating an outcome that results in a 'win win' for both parties ie op gets decent shower at minimal additional cost, plumber spends minimal labour on the call back may prove a more measured approach. Check out Salamander home boost system.

 

[Riley]

I have to say I'm with Chris on this one. If all the facts we've been told are correct then the customer should not have to put up with a pump due to the plumbers cock up. Likewise for all we know the plumbing firm have warned the customer that a Combi may not be the best option but we have all had customers that must have a Combi and nothing else will do as they don't understand or don't want to understand the options available

 

[chris watkins]

Thanks Chris very informative!
But as you stated initially the information provided is one sided. Without being able to corroborate either parties version, i was only offering an option that may solve the problem in hand.id assume having a decent shower is relatively high on the op's list of priorities and dragging this dispute through the courts will both add further deley and burn a big whole in his pocket. The courts may offer some form of compensation IF and that's a big IF they find in his favour. But ultimately it's going to be a lot of hassle and stress for little outcome. In my humble opinion Negotiating an outcome that results in a 'win win' for both parties ie op gets decent shower at minimal additional cost, plumber spends minimal labour on the call back may prove a more measured approach. Check out Salamander home boost system.

I agree negotiation is always better to resolve disputes, my post was aimed more for the aspiring plumbing companies out there and again this may be more a London thing but for those who can afford or have easy access to the Law and are certainly not afraid to use it, not for filling your duties under it when installing a product can be a very expensive mistake.

Which is why I never ever work for Judges, barristers, solicitors in fact any member of the judiciary, as they simple can't be trusted not to use it for their own ends. IMHO