fully qualified plumber in two weeks.

[fuzzy]

These courses make a mockery of my 4 years both in college and on the job as a proper apprentice. No wonder many house holders are going down the DIY route as they're sh*t scared who'll come and work in their homes with all the inexperienced and cowboys out there claiming to be experts.

I don't touch electrics as I'm not trained or qualified, or major joinery work or large gas installations, even though I know how and have the skills to do these, yet in two weeks someone can claim to be a trained professional. I've been a plumber since 1982, but how is a house holder to know that over someone who'se been one for two weeks? It should be law that a qaulified trainee should have to do a further probationery period.

so who does the electrica when youve fitted a central heating system? do you want to spend another 4 years as an apprentice to wire it up?

 

[Plum Bob 66]

Will do thanks, for the advice.
Bob

 

[Guest123]

so who does the electrica when youve fitted a central heating system? do you want to spend another 4 years as an apprentice to wire it up?

A fully qualified electrician does that for me and he gives me a safety certificate when he's finished. I add his fee on to the bill and when I explain to the customer that he/she is getting electrics done by a fully qualified electrician and it will be guaranteed safe complete with a certificate and guarantee, they always agree.

 

[fuzzy]

A fully qualified electrician does that for me and he gives me a safety certificate when he's finished. I add his fee on to the bill and when I explain to the customer that he/she is getting electrics done by a fully qualified electrician and it will be guaranteed safe complete with a certificate and guarantee, they always agree.

well its supposed to be a plumbers job, thats why they teach it on the plumbing course, you need a vrq part p to enable you to certify, no different to learning gas then needing you acs. thats why competence person schemes are excellent for the industry

the problem is people use them as short cuts, often sold as full courses by private money making companies. dont blame the qual or the tradesman, blame the people misusing and miselling them

 

[fuzzy]

A fully qualified electrician does that for me and he gives me a safety certificate when he's finished. I add his fee on to the bill and when I explain to the customer that he/she is getting electrics done by a fully qualified electrician and it will be guaranteed safe complete with a certificate and guarantee, they always agree.

well its supposed to be a plumbers job, thats why they teach it on the plumbing course, you need a vrq part p to enable you to certify, no different to learning gas then needing you acs. thats why competence person schemes are excellent for the industry

the problem is people use them as short cuts, often sold as full courses by private money making companies. dont blame the qual or the tradesman, blame the people misusing and miselling them

 

[desrob]

These courses make a mockery of my 4 years both in college and on the job as a proper apprentice. No wonder many house holders are going down the DIY route as they're sh*t scared who'll come and work in their homes with all the inexperienced and cowboys out there claiming to be experts.

I don't touch electrics as I'm not trained or qualified, or major joinery work or large gas installations, even though I know how and have the skills to do these, yet in two weeks someone can claim to be a trained professional. I've been a plumber since 1982, but how is a house holder to know that over someone who'se been one for two weeks? It should be law that a qaulified trainee should have to do a further probationery period.

well said you have my vote

 

[Dormouse]

These courses make a mockery of my 4 years both in college and on the job as a proper apprentice. No wonder many house holders are going down the DIY route as they're sh*t scared who'll come and work in their homes with all the inexperienced and cowboys out there claiming to be experts.

I don't touch electrics as I'm not trained or qualified, or major joinery work or large gas installations, even though I know how and have the skills to do these, yet in two weeks someone can claim to be a trained professional. I've been a plumber since 1982, but how is a house holder to know that over someone who'se been one for two weeks? It should be law that a qaulified trainee should have to do a further probationery period.

As a fast tracker I completely agree, I was & still am very surprised at how little studying was involved to become Gas Safe registered. I've been re-training full time for the best part of a year & I don't feel as though I have enough knowledge which is why I'm starting a Level 2 NVQ. As for probation, Gas Safe have all new subscribers on a 3 month probation & request evidence of work, although saying that the evidence can be landlords certs where's the evidence of safe gas work there ? yes... cooker works.... yes.... boiler works.... no soot, smells or dodgy flame... heres your certificate... £90 please !

 

[Dormouse]

Just to add to my previous thread. Another thing that concerns me, a chap on my course had been a plumber for the best part of 25 years & he nearly failed his gas ACS. I've changed a few sink wastes & flew through my ACS.
I'm now fully qualified to fit an entire heating system in someones house & he very nearly wasn't!

 

[fuzzy]

As a fast tracker I completely agree, I was & still am very surprised at how little studying was involved to become Gas Safe registered. I've been re-training full time for the best part of a year & I don't feel as though I have enough knowledge which is why I'm starting a Level 2 NVQ. As for probation, Gas Safe have all new subscribers on a 3 month probation & request evidence of work, although saying that the evidence can be landlords certs where's the evidence of safe gas work there ? yes... cooker works.... yes.... boiler works.... no soot, smells or dodgy flame... heres your certificate... £90 please !

you took the short cut if your doing your nvq after the acs! its not desinged for newbies, if you bluffed your way onto the course it is you at fault not the course

 

[Dormouse]

you took the short cut if your doing your nvq after the acs! its not desinged for newbies, if you bluffed your way onto the course it is you at fault not the course

A genuine Newb error... I meant C&G 2

ps I'm a gas fast tracker not water

 

[fuzzy]

A genuine Newb error... I meant C&G 2

ps I'm a gas fast tracker not water

NVQ is C&G???? C&G are an awarding body not a qualification?
gas fast tracker, so you have gas quals or only your acs? what you dont seem torealise is the acs is for experienced trades people, not newbies or fast trackers, if you and others have found a loop hole dont then blame he course, its you and the people charging you for the short cut who are at fault

 

[Dormouse]

'Never stop learning' interesting choice of words Fuzzy.

I clearly have a lot to learn & I realise that.
I thought I was going in the right direction.
You seem very intollerent of my inexperience, what do you suggest ?
Maybe I can get a job as a tea boy for a plumber at the age of 35 with a family & morgage for the next some years.
There is one thing that I have noticed in the short time that I have been retraining & that is that there are a lot of unhelpful plumbing & heating guys out there.
It's not as if I woke up one morning & thought, d'ya know what, I'm going to embark on a very expensive & lengthy process of upsetting every bloke who fixes leaky taps!
Why would I realise the ACS is for experienced trades people? I'm new to the industry !
What are you talking about a 'loop hole' & 'short cuts'?.. how long do you propose it should take to be Gas qualified? so far it's taken me 8 months full time.

 

[fuzzy]

'Never stop learning' interesting choice of words Fuzzy.

I clearly have a lot to learn & I realise that.
I thought I was going in the right direction.
You seem very intollerent of my inexperience, what do you suggest ?
Maybe I can get a job as a tea boy for a plumber at the age of 35 with a family & morgage for the next some years.
There is one thing that I have noticed in the short time that I have been retraining & that is that there are a lot of unhelpful plumbing & heating guys out there.
It's not as if I woke up one morning & thought, d'ya know what, I'm going to embark on a very expensive & lengthy process of upsetting every bloke who fixes leaky taps!
Why would I realise the ACS is for experienced trades people? I'm new to the industry !
What are you talking about a 'loop hole' & 'short cuts'?.. how long do you propose it should take to be Gas qualified? so far it's taken me 8 months full time.

im not sure what point your trying to make? you say you are surprised how easy it was to get your acs, then you question how long it should take as if 8 mnths is too long, please make your ming up and make it clear what your issues are and i can help you get on the right course and the right direction.

dont know what point your making with unhlepful plumbers either?

 

[desrob]

Just to add to my previous thread. Another thing that concerns me, a chap on my course had been a plumber for the best part of 25 years & he nearly failed his gas ACS. I've changed a few sink wastes & flew through my ACS.
I'm now fully qualified to fit an entire heating system in someones house & he very nearly wasn't!

i was following your thread amd wondering how you have you ccn1,i was under the impression you have to have at least a plumbing qualification level2 nvq , and you say your qualified to fit a central heating system, but can you !

 

[Dormouse]

No!
That's exactly the point that I'm trying to make.
I paid for a gas ACS (ccn1,cen1,ckr1,htr1,cpa1,EEDH-part L) training course which took me 6 months to complete, it was a full time practical, workshop, theory & classroom course, the course could be theorectically completed in just two months as you only had to complete 25 gas related jobs. Once the exams are passed, which they are, I am now legally allowed to install a full heating system from scratch! To me, that's mental ! As I have no industry experience, gas or water, I am now trying to gain some training related to water (to be able to do it right). Although there is actually no requirement for me to do so. I am agreeing with the time served guys on here that it isn't enough time. The 8 months reference is how long I have been training for as I have been going on other courses & getting work experience (unpaid) elsewhere (my choice). There seems to be a set path into the industry which I appear to be skipping certain parts or doing in the wrong order. This was never an issue for me before as I came in directly into gas from a completely different sector.

 

[fuzzy]

dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.

The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.

Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade

So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.

i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?

 

[Guest123]

well its supposed to be a plumbers job, thats why they teach it on the plumbing course, you need a vrq part p to enable you to certify, no different to learning gas then needing you acs. thats why competence person schemes are excellent for the industry

the problem is people use them as short cuts, often sold as full courses by private money making companies. dont blame the qual or the tradesman, blame the people misusing and miselling them

My point is that as plumbers are we to be electricians, joiners, builders, roofers or whatever else. What's the point in having apprenticeships and learning each trade if we can go on a two week course and become a jack of all trades, master of none. I know a former bank clerk who'd never lifted a hammer in his life and he's out claiming to be able to fit gas appliances after sitting a week long course. Bloody dangerous this! A proper apprenticeship takes time as mine did (4 years) and you actually learn more on the job than sitting in a classroom. Every day's a school day and you never stop learning new things. There's no way anyone should gain trade qualifications in 2 weeks, and even moreso if they've never even done any diy or building work in their life. The industry is getting hit from all sectors and the TV is full of Cowboy Builders programmes. We don't need any more hassle. If someone employs me to fit their bathroom, it's because they think that as a professional I can do a better job than if they attempted to diy. All it takes is for one inexperienced "tradesman" to muck it up and blow their perception of why they employed a "professional" in the first place.
Electrics are for electricians, joinery for joiners etc. or why bother sitting an individual trade apprenticeship in the first place. And just because you have a piece of paper stating that you are qualified to fit electrics, doesn't make you competent to do it!

 

[fuzzy]

i have no issue ith them if used with their intended purpose. Its the people who take short cuts and sell inapropiate courses who are to blame and this has caused alot of concern for summitskills. Competence person scheme are here to stay im afraid, better to educate people rather than dismiss them because we are either scared of confused by them.
I am a plumber with my VRQ full scope part P. i dont think im an electrician but i know i can wire up a central heating system better than many sparks i know. I use it for the right reasons on appropiate jobs, thats what its for and in that scenario it works.

Blame the centres misleading people like Dormouse, not the qual itself

 

[fuzzy]

right, going to bed now, dont want you to miss my reply dormouse, goodnight all,

dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.

The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.

Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade

So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.

i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?

 

[desrob]

right, going to bed now, dont want you to miss my reply dormouse, goodnight all,

dormouse i dont think you are following what i am saying as you seem to be contradicting yourself again, let me try to explain.

The correct route for newbies into the trade is a NVQ2 then a NVQ3 whether this be plumbing, H&V or gas, all related trades. The ACS is NOT I repeat is NOT a trade qualification. It is a 5 year safety qualification designed to check you are working safe and is designed for qualified and experienced trades people.

Some centres use the qualification for vunrable or inexperienced people wanting to get into the trade, which it shouldn't be. There is a route (Cat 3) which allows unqualified to gain the qualification but this is only if the candidate has significant experience, centres can ask for 240 days proven experience on a wide and varied type of gas work (ACS is gas only, not central heating). You wouldnt be expected to know how to fit or service a boiler just because you have done your ACS, that would be a plumbing L3 or gas course for that. ACS is just a competence person scheme like part p, part l unvented and water egs etc and does not prove you can carry out the range of tasks but work safely, presuming you have prior experience in a related trade

So when you say you are surprised that you are allowed to fit central heating because you have your ACS it shouldnt be a surprise. The loop hole i speak of is the short cut of completing a ACS competence person scheme without either experience of prior related qualifications.

i said and i stand by, you cannot blame the qualification but the centre that misled you. You shouldn't have even done the qual without substantial experience, were did you do the course?

surly dormouth can not do any gas job of any significance competently with a clear conscience, but is he to blame,these companys offering people dreams with no regard to the person or the industry,

 

[GQuigley67]

the fact that you can get an ACS without any previous trade experience or any knowledge of a boiler or heating system, and legally be able to install one of these systems, is mad .. I don't think these people should be out on their own doin work like this, they should be supervised or working for someone else

 

[fuzzy]

you cannot obtain your acs without previous experience or quialifications. I dont know how dormouse has achieved it without the experience as this is not legal. My point is dont blame the qualification as theres nothing wrong with it, its the people misusing or misellng and misleading candidates who are to blame. hence my phrase 'loop hole'

 

[Dormouse]

Fuzzy, great reply... I wish it had been explained to me that way from the start !
Please anybody, don't assume I'm some sort of fly by night cowboy, I switched industries, I havn't just left school. I've spent over 15 years in transport/logistics starting at the bottom & progressing on to running my own recruitment agency. I'm quite aware of personal development which is why I'm doing the NVQ. I know a lot of guys that have done similar courses to me & jumped straight into the job head first..! I've seen the mistakes.. I don't want to repeat them.
FYI the course I did was ;
Gas Training Courses, Electrician & Plumbing Courses | Get Training
Read the first line...
I did the 'Get To Gas Full Time' course with six others, after that I was placed with a large heating company for 6 weeks doing social & private boiler/fire services & breakdowns @ 8 a day (about 200), then the next 12 weeks doing two or three installs a week (about 30) & some powerflushing. The next few months were spent voluntarily at manufacturers various training courses, Vaillant, Baxi, Honeywell, Vokera, Viessmann, Glow Worm etc.
This is extra that I have paid for, bearing in mind that I'm under no obligation to do so with my current quals.
At no point in time, considering the amount of industry proffessionals I met, did anyone tell me about an NVQ, I found this out by myself after completing my ACS.
Am I at fault here?
It's easy to point the finger at newbies & say they are incompetent but if not one single person in 8 months thought to mention that I might need some knowledge of water before I subscribed to this forum, including the large heating company, that sounds to me like an industry problem not an issue with individuals.
In the transport sector you can't just pass your driving test & jump into a petrol tanker, there are laws & systems in place to stop that from happening. Sorry for the long comment....

 

[Guest123]

In the transport sector you can't just pass your driving test & jump into a petrol tanker, there are laws & systems in place to stop that from happening.

I know which is a good thing. So why is the same law not in place for trades where peoples lives can be put at risk by incompitence?

Dormouse you are to be commended for realising that you need experience not just a qualification and for going out there and seeking it.

 

[fuzzy]

wasnt blaming you dormouse, quite the opposite, its the fault of the training provider who is using the qual in the wrong manner. i presume the comapny didnt really care or they were being paid?

point to note, you dont need water quals to do gas? if you want to get into gas the recognised qual is a gas nvq, the acs is the last assessment you should take not the first