Gas work for family

[fuzzy]

oh the managing safely course, i did the NEBOSH and they defined it as KUTE (cute) Knowledge, understanding, training and experience. The easiest way to prove this in terms of gas is to have the ACS, but it doesnt have to be

 

[oldplumber]

so why do the hse keep taking people to court who have previously passed their acs and been corgi/gas safe registered and prosecuted them for illegal works, it must be because they arent competant in the eyes of the law, simple really and therefore fuzz your understanding of the regs cannt be quite right can it!!

 

[fuzzy]

so why do the hse keep taking people to court who have previously passed their acs and been corgi/gas safe registered and prosecuted them for illegal works, it must be because they arent competant in the eyes of the law, simple really and therefore fuzz your understanding of the regs cannt be quite right can it!!

They take them to court because they are not gas safe registered and they are contrevning regulation 3 (3)
no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

If you are doing gas work for family you are not employed, therefore it dont count. Not being gas safe registered does not mean you are not competant does it?

So sorry to put you right, no hard feelings, may i point out once again i am 100% right

 

[wnjswozo]

think you have it wrong fuzzy ,what if your family owned 300 flats,and you were asked to fit boilers in each one,i,m sure
you could,nt get away with it.the manufacturers state in the mi it must be installed by a gassafe reg installer,and commissioned by one.

 

[oldplumber]

They take them to court because they are not gas safe registered and they are contrevning regulation 3 (3)
no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.

If you are doing gas work for family you are not employed, therefore it dont count. Not being gas safe registered does not mean you are not competant does it?

So sorry to put you right, no hard feelings, may i point out once again i am 100% right

Like I said before look at definitions in section 2.1 where work is defined and there is no mention of financial reward just what work is and that is touching.working on gas appliances etc and you are not allowed to do so unless deemed competant and you arent competant in the eyes of the law unless you are registered as gas safe yourself or working for an employer at the time who is. So as you so ,no hard feelings but your a 100% wrong and it will catch up with you one day

 

[GreenArmy]

A couple of facts (well i think they are facts):-
1. If you do gas work without being GS Registered and it is an unsafe installation you will be taken to court.
2. If you do gas work that is the perfect installation and not one fault can be found but you are not GS Registered and you do it for your mum for no charge, you will not be taken to court.

 

[fuzzy]

think you have it wrong fuzzy ,what if your family owned 300 flats,and you were asked to fit boilers in each one,i,m sure
you could,nt get away with it.the manufacturers state in the mi it must be installed by a gassafe reg installer,and commissioned by one.

I think this is a very good question. I think it comes down to the fact that you wouldnt get somebody to do 300 boilers for free without being employed. secondly, the installation of boilers requires benchmarks and registration which would need gas safe registration. This does not however change the fact that gas work can be done for no charge (ie not employed in the regs) and it does not break the regs. We are talking more of one off jobs or moving pipes around or similar. I am gas safe registered through my company but would have no hesitation at all in moving a gas pipe for my Mother since i am allowed to

 

[fuzzy]

Like I said before look at definitions in section 2.1 where work is defined and there is no mention of financial reward just what work is and that is touching.working on gas appliances etc and you are not allowed to do so unless deemed competant and you arent competant in the eyes of the law unless you are registered as gas safe yourself or working for an employer at the time who is. So as you so ,no hard feelings but your a 100% wrong and it will catch up with you one day

we all know the definition of work, dont know what your trying to procve by telling us all again. Like ive said before on more than one occasion, section 3 (1) askes that you are competent section 3 (2) (3) talks about employed or self employed having to be gas safe registered (as approved by the HSE etc). Therefore if you are not employed or self employed (ie not for financial gain ) you can do the work.
I think you are just disputing this for the sake of it, try understanding the regs instead of trying to prove something that is incorrect

 

[wnjswozo]

if you did gas work for a charity for no charge ,then according to your thinking fuzzy you dont need to be gsr,
i cant see it

 

[buckley plumb]

another gas reg thats not so clear why dont they make the regs in plain eassy to understand english . I would agree in the fact if you are not gas safe registered how can your work be checked and registered the idea of being gas safe registered is to proove your compitent in the work place as they can check up any of your work at anytime .if its not registered it can be checked.just my view.come on gas safe make the regs easier to read.

ant

 

[fuzzy]

another gas reg thats not so clear why dont they make the regs in plain eassy to understand english . I would agree in the fact if you are not gas safe registered how can your work be checked and registered the idea of being gas safe registered is to proove your compitent in the work place as they can check up any of your work at anytime .if its not registered it can be checked.just my view.come on gas safe make the regs easier to read.

ant

gas safe dont write the regs????? its through the HSE, maybe thats why people on here get confused

 

[fuzzy]

if you did gas work for a charity for no charge ,then according to your thinking fuzzy you dont need to be gsr,
i cant see it

dont get hung up on the "no charge" as i keep saying that is how i put it for ease of understanding, the regs refer to work as an employer or self employed you must be gas safe registered. therefore if you are not employed but carrying out gas work then theres no issue. sorry to keep putting you all right on this. If anyone else understands the regs correctly like me feel free to chip in

 

[oldplumber]

regs 2,1 defines work, so if you arent registered whether or not you are paid you are working on gas appliances etc, which is therefore illegal, you have to look at more than one of the regs to understand them, its called multi tasking, something some of are unable to do it would seem. If you look at some of the past prosecutions people have done good work and still been hit by the HSE for not being registered, but they got reported and hit with the big stick.

 

[tamz]

Hopefully to put this one to bed.

From The Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998

From Reg 2

“work” in relation to a gas fitting includes any of the following activities carried out by any person, whether an employee or not, that is to say -
(a) installing or re-connecting the fitting;
(b) maintaining, servicing, permanently adjusting, disconnecting, repairing, altering or renewing the fitting or purging it of air or gas;
(c) where the fitting is not readily movable, changing its position; and
(d) removing the fitting.
but the expression does not include the connection or disconnection of a bayonet fitting or other self-sealing connector.

The guidance note

22 For the purposes of these Regulations, ‘work’ includes do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only by businesses carrying out gas fitting work (see paragraphs 43-45).

So what does it say in reg 3

(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.
(2) The employer of any person carrying out such work for that employer, every other employer and self-employed person who has control to any extent of such work and every employer and self-employed person who has required such work to be carried out at any place of work under his control shall ensure that paragraph (1) above is complied with in relation to such work.
(3) Without prejudice to the generality of paragraphs (1) and (2) above and subject to paragraph (4) below, no employer shall allow any of his employees to carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or service pipework and no self-employed person shall carry out any such work, unless the employer or self-employed person, as the case may be, is a member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph.


So what does that mean? Look to the guidance notes and it states


43 All gas installation businesses, including self-employed gas installers, are (subject to the limited exceptions in regulation 3(4)) required to be in membership of a ‘class of persons’ approved by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE), whether they carry out such work as their main or part activity. Gas fitters who are employed by a member of an approved ‘class of persons’, but who do separate work on their own behalf, need to be in membership of such class of persons, eg CORGI-registered, in their own right.


That bit covers employed or self employed and also means anyone employed but doing homers (paid) needs there own registration.



44 At the time of publication of this ACOP/guidance, the only body with such approval is CORGI Gas Registration (although other organisations may apply to HSE for consideration to act as a registration body if they so wish). CORGI’s address is 1 Elmwood, Chineham Business Park, Crockford Lane, Basingstoke, Hants RG24 8WG (tel: 0800 915 0480).


This bit means the HSE need to update their stuff but it now means Gas Safe Register.



[FONT=&quot]45 Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be competent to do so, whether or not they are required to be a member of an approved class of persons. Therefore, do-it-yourself installers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have the required competence. The level and range of competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and relevant to that work. Employers of gas fitting operatives are also required under regulation 3(2) to ensure that their employees have the required competence for the work undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly experienced and trained (see paragraph 47), this involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as necessary
[/FONT]
And finally we get to the bit we want with the key word being competence.
Therefore anyone who is competent, (having the required ACS is the easiest accepted way to prove it (other ways of proving competence would need to be proved in a Court of Law)) who carries out favours for friends, relatives or voluntary stuff does not require to be Gas Safe Registered.

Every gas operative should be familiar with this document

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/l56.pdf
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[REDSAW]

good work tamz, thanks for the effort.

 

[tamz]

Your welcome

 

[fuzzy]

Cheers Tamz, you put it over very well, maybe people will now believe me?

 

[buckley plumb]

i can see what you are saying whats stopping engineers doing forigners at the wk end and classing it as no financial gain if there is no paper trail.

ant

 

[GreenArmy]

Nice one Tamz......that's this thread put to bed then........or is it?

 

[fuzzy]

i can see what you are saying whats stopping engineers doing forigners at the wk end and classing it as no financial gain if there is no paper trail.

ant

Is it worth the risk? If your already ACS why not just register? On the other hand, i know plenty that do what you say, they could get caught though, nobody will believe that its always for family and/or freinds

 

[kirkgas]

Tamz the man!!!!!!!!!!

close the topic

 

[fuzzy]

so why do the hse keep taking people to court who have previously passed their acs and been corgi/gas safe registered and prosecuted them for illegal works, it must be because they arent competant in the eyes of the law, simple really and therefore fuzz your understanding of the regs cannt be quite right can it!!

Will you now accept i was right?

 

[GreenArmy]

Will you now accept i was right?

I doubt it ;-)

 

[fuzzy]

I doubt it ;-)

i took alot of stick on this, im going all out for full agreement now!

 

[oldplumber]

tamz explained it beautifully, and not trying to be a wise bum, dont forget to get insurnance cover if your working for friends and family for free, just in case it goes wrong through no fault of your doing and you need backup. Remember though that you wont get cover if you dont register with gas safe. It would seem the insurers work under different rules to HSE, slippery sods