is an ECV actually mainly used as a Service Valve ???

[snowhead]

There is about as much safety issue's with my property as there is with the rest of the housed on the planet lol

The majority of houses with a live gas supply are occupied, so if there's a leak it would be noticed.
An empty property with a live supply, even capped is a risk, just as much from the gas service pipe outside the property as the capped ECV inside.
Hence the mention of within 30mtrs of the property.

The less empty properties with a live supply the lower the risk to everyone nearby that property.

I'm not sure you have time for any battles if you want gas for Xmas.
I think you'll be lucky to get the new service in by then.

This is what happens when gas gets loose inside properties;
gas explosions houses - Google Search

 

[Dean Williams]

The majority of houses with a live gas supply are occupied, so if there's a leak it would be noticed.
An empty property with a live supply, even capped is a risk, just as much from the gas service pipe outside the property as the capped ECV inside.
Hence the mention of within 30mtrs of the property.

The less empty properties with a live supply the lower the risk to everyone nearby that property.

I'm not sure you have time for any battles if you want gas for Xmas.
I think you'll be lucky to get the new service in by then.

the 30m of occupied property refers to old cast iron pipework so that is irrelevant in my case............and an occupied property would be more of a risk than an unoccupied property ...... the majority of gas leaks within a property are from after the meter "not before" and the ones on the service pipe will happen irrespective of occupied or unoccupied don't you think ?

 

[Dean Williams]

the 30m of occupied property refers to old cast iron pipework so that is irrelevant in my case...and an occupied property would be more of a risk than an unoccupied property .. the majority of gas leaks within a property are from after the meter "not before" and the ones on the service pipe will happen irrespective of occupied or unoccupied don't you think ?

P,S They cut off my supply 150mm outside my wall as it is a terrace property on the highway

 

[Dean Williams]

in English old money that's a full 6"

 

[Last Plumber]

i am grateful for your comments and taking time to post them its a learning curve for us all , i know you said removing would be safer than capping but wouldn't all houses be safer with it disconnected then !!!!

Of course. We would all be safer without Gas in our buildings. That goes for Industrial, Commercial and Domestic properties. We would all be safer without 275000 Km of buried pipes carrying Gas at various pressures under our feet. That is why there is a massive industry built around the safety aspect.

the 30m of occupied property refers to old cast iron pipework so that is irrelevant in my case...

The 30 Meters refers to all pipes. See below:-

23 Iron includes cast iron, spun cast iron, and ductile iron. Pipes made from steel are not covered by regulation 13A. However, steel and pipelines made from other materials still have to be maintained in good repair under the Pipelines Safety Regulations 1996, regulation 13.

This means that they are all to be included in the general maintenance programme. The removal of a redundant pipe, whatever the material, is safer than leaving it live.

and an occupied property would be more of a risk than an unoccupied property .. the majority of gas leaks within a property are from after the meter "not before" and the ones on the service pipe will happen irrespective of occupied or unoccupied don't you think ?

A leak on an ECV could of course occur whether the building is occupied or unoccupied. The occupancy of a building does effect the risk assessment. If a building is occupied, there is more chance of someone detecting a leak and reporting it.

I think we could discuss this until the cows come home.
If you want two meters or two supplies you would need to apply anyway, even if the service was still connected. They wouldn't just install another meter without calcs. The pressure in the street may be low and the service pipe might not be large enough to supply two meters/two flats.

I think you need to apply for that to be sorted. In my area of the UK, this kind of work can take around three months from the application to it being carried out.

As I said earlier, good luck, let us know how you go on.

 

[Dean Williams]

Of course. We would all be safer without Gas in our buildings. That goes for Industrial, Commercial and Domestic properties. We would all be safer without 275000 Km of buried pipes carrying Gas at various pressures under our feet. That is why there is a massive industry built around the safety aspect.



The 30 Meters refers to all pipes. See below:-

23 Iron includes cast iron, spun cast iron, and ductile iron. Pipes made from steel are not covered by regulation 13A. However, steel and pipelines made from other materials still have to be maintained in good repair under the Pipelines Safety Regulations 1996, regulation 13.

This means that they are all to be included in the general maintenance programme. The removal of a redundant pipe, whatever the material, is safer than leaving it live.



A leak on an ECV could of course occur whether the building is occupied or unoccupied. The occupancy of a building does effect the risk assessment. If a building is occupied, there is more chance of someone detecting a leak and reporting it.

I think we could discuss this until the cows come home.
If you want two meters or two supplies you would need to apply anyway, even if the service was still connected. They wouldn't just install another meter without calcs. The pressure in the street may be low and the service pipe might not be large enough to supply two meters/two flats.

I think you need to apply for that to be sorted. In my area of the UK, this kind of work can take around three months from the application to it being carried out.

As I said earlier, good luck, let us know how you go on.

will do and thanks for your comments

 

[Dean Williams]

in English old money that's a full 6"

National Grid are not concerned if the property is occupied or unoccupied...... all they want is a Gas meter installed on the end of the ECV .......so you have to pay a standing charge ........ if i had a Gas meter with the pipe leaving the meter not feeding anything and just capped off lets say 500mm after the meter then "everything would be fine with them" ......how is that any safer than a cap on ECV ...... a child could work that one out ....... the reasons behind the disconnection in my mind is a misinterpretation of the regulations that have never been questioned by anyone and people are just saying ......well its the regulations ,,,,, without looking for the reasoning behind it

 

[firemant]

Got bored reading, so this may have been answered. You should have got to the point straightaway, rather than pussyfooting.

The ECV is the ECV. It does not matter what it is routinely used for. Each appliance should have its own service valve, where practical.

In this context, they are probably classing a Service Inlet Tee as the "service" valve. Not all supplies have them, but later ones do. In my time with NG, the service would be isolated at the service/inlet Tee, in the absence of which it would be cut in the road.

 

[Dean Williams]

Got bored reading, so this may have been answered. You should have got to the point straightaway, rather than pussyfooting.

The ECV is the ECV. It does not matter what it is routinely used for. Each appliance should have its own service valve, where practical.

In this context, they are probably classing a Service Inlet Tee as the "service" valve. Not all supplies have them, but later ones do. In my time with NG, the service would be isolated at the service/inlet Tee, in the absence of which it would be cut in the road.

Hi
Thanks for your interest
Let me get your reply right ......are you saying that if you have a common white gas meter box on the property and the owner has the meter removed "because the property is empty and he /she does not want to carry on paying a standing charges for the period it is empty...... that you would leave it for 12 months (the statutory period) with the ECV turned off and pipe capped with the relevant "live gas tag"
that if no meter was installed within the 12 month period you would return and excavate the footpath and disconnect the supply ??? on what grounds would you do this ???

 

[firemant]

Hi
Thanks for your interest
Let me get your reply right ....are you saying that if you have a common white gas meter box on the property and the owner has the meter removed "because the property is empty and he /she does not want to carry on paying a standing charges for the period it is empty.... that you would leave it for 12 months (the statutory period) with the ECV turned off and pipe capped with the relevant "live gas tag"
that if no meter was installed within the 12 month period you would return and excavate the footpath and disconnect the supply ??? on what grounds would you do this ???

I don't work for NG these days, but the answer was yes. Except the path would nit be excavated,the road would, as the idea is to remove the unused service. The pipe between the cut and the meter would just be capped and abandoned.

The grounds are the statutory document you mentioned/quoted earlier. Your original argument was based on the "ECV" actually being a "service" valve. It IS NOT. All the other arguments and discussion about justifying the actions on H&S grounds are pointless. I would not like to say WHY the rule is there, but it is not a Cadent/NG rule.

So, if there is an "entry Tee", (probably qualifying as a "service valve") which contains a screw down valve the service will stay. If not, it goes. It may be that there are "service valves" in the street. I don't think there are these days, but used to be for Towns Gas.

Having said that, your other argument stream re the confusion and apparent lack of communication has merit, if it is accurate. But when you complain about that, to Cadent, making up your own definitions will only detract from your argument credibility.

How did a 0800 number cost so much?

 

[Dean Williams]

I don't work for NG these days, but the answer was yes. Except the path would nit be excavated,the road would, as the idea is to remove the unused service. The pipe between the cut and the meter would just be capped and abandoned.

The grounds are the statutory document you mentioned/quoted earlier. Your original argument was based on the "ECV" actually being a "service" valve. It IS NOT. All the other arguments and discussion about justifying the actions on H&S grounds are pointless. I would not like to say WHY the rule is there, but it is not a Cadent/NG rule.

So, if there is an "entry Tee", (probably qualifying as a "service valve") which contains a screw down valve the service will stay. If not, it goes. It may be that there are "service valves" in the street. I don't think there are these days, but used to be for Towns Gas.

Having said that, your other argument stream re the confusion and apparent lack of communication has merit, if it is accurate. But when you complain about that, to Cadent, making up your own definitions will only detract from your argument credibility.

How did a 0800 number cost so much?

it cost so much because they use a its a 0345 number not a o800 as they also what to make money on you ringing up to sort it out , they justify this by saying it's providing a service ...... anyway back to the ECV would you not agree that the name ECV is purely named this for the sake of the householders benefit so they know this is what to turn off in case of a gas leak ????? and in reality this is always used be gas fitters as a service valve when no other isolation valve is available ???? would you also agree that there is LESS chance of a gas leak before the meter than after the meter and that 99.9% of gas leaks are from after the meter within the property ????

 

[firemant]

it cost so much because they use a its a 0345 number not a o800 as they also what to make money on you ringing up to sort it out , they justify this by saying it's providing a service .. anyway back to the ECV would you not agree that the name ECV is purely named this for the sake of the householders benefit so they know this is what to turn off in case of a gas leak ????? and in reality this is always used be gas fitters as a service valve when no other isolation valve is available ???? would you also agree that there is LESS chance of a gas leak before the meter than after the meter and that 99.9% of gas leaks are from after the meter within the property ????

It is irrelevant what I (or you). The ECV IS an ECV. You will not win this argument without getting proper legal representation, and then I guess you would probably lose.

Rather than asking this on a plumbing forum, I would say a legal one is the best route.

Phoning to ask stuff like this is pointless. The operators are only exactly that.

Start writing. Acknowledge to whoever you address the letter to that he may not be the most appropriate recipient. Ask them to forward the letter to whoever is best placed to deal with the query, and to return a letter to let you know to whom he has directed it.
DO NOT start ranting or being mysterious.
Provide a copy of the document you found.Explain that you disagree with their interpretation BUT do not go into details of your argument. They will find a reason to disagree with every argument
Instead, ask THEM to provide THEIR rationale for interpreting the regs in the way that they do. When you are satisfied that you have THEIR argument in full, then you can concentrate on debunking their interpretation.
Their answer will be useful for your legal rep to argue to argue your case, if you chose to risk money.

Do you have a legal section on your home or car insurance policy?

In future try phoning 0800 111999, and ask for the right department. It might work. But an 0345 number is charged as a standard landline call. so you must have been using an expensive mobile provider.

Incidentally, it is true that many things ARE, simply because they have always been so, an no one has bothered to think differently.
I go to a Comedy Night regularly in a LA owned theatre. Although it is a "cabaret" rather than "theatre" seating, one has to decant drinks into plastic beakers, which I find irritating, and slightly insulting.
I wrote to the manager of the venue, and, rather than listing all the normal nonsense arguments around H&S etc. I asked for the rationale behind this policy. Within a week, I receive a response to say they have reviewed the policy, and from the next event glasses and bottles will be allowed.
I firmly believe that she, as manager (of the large complex), had no idea that this policy was in place, and she issued orders to change,in the absence of any good reason not to.