is time served the same as an apprenticeship

[gmac]

My personal view is alot depends on the person, there plenty of so called plumbers who have done an apprenticeship after leaving school and really should never have got the quals, I've been there with them in the past, I've had unqualified men working for me in the past who were in a league of their own when it came to plumbing, So regardless of whether they've been to college and got nvqs I couldn't care less, nvq's don't mean what they're meant to mean, plenty of people with them not competent through the apprenticeship route as well as fast tracking, personally i'd employ a competent unqualifed plumber over an incompetent qualified plumber everytime.

 

[fuzzy]

Lol a diplomat answer

Any apprentice we have ever had did not learn very much at collage was learnt out on site

Not surprised if you sent them a collage, you should have sent them to a College, lol

I hear that a lot (more often than not those who didn't do a traditional apprenticeship), in my own experience I learned much at work but all the underpinning knowledge and basic skills came from College. When I was still in my early days I would often recall things I learned at College when in a new situation. If you learn the basics well in anything you can always refer back to them when struggling. I honestly believe its a case of both aspects are very important, College for underpinning knowledge and theory background and work to apply it. One without the other doesnt give you the full perspective or training required to be at the top of your game. There will always be exceptions to this rule but im talking about the majority.

Plus, my suggestion of what is 'time served' is just the normal use of the term, i dont know if its correct or not but it is what its known as.

I'm not an apprentice snob, i think there are some, there should always be routes to become qualified, i feel like much in society the pendulum has swung to far towards making it too easily accesible, but going to a closed shop isnt the answer either, we need a healthy balance

 

[fuzzy]

My personal view is alot depends on the person, there plenty of so called plumbers who have done an apprenticeship after leaving school and really should never have got the quals, I've been there with them in the past, I've had unqualified men working for me in the past who were in a league of their own when it came to plumbing, So regardless of whether they've been to college and got nvqs I couldn't care less, nvq's don't mean what they're meant to mean, plenty of people with them not competent through the apprenticeship route as well as fast tracking, personally i'd employ a competent unqualifed plumber over an incompetent qualified plumber everytime.

I hear you but there are always exceptions to the rule. i think a balance is best. i would never ever disregard quality worth while training at a centre/college. Just because some people have left and have been rubbish does not mean the system does not work, there are many people, me included had a good experience and I'm glad I had that experience

 

[Gray0689]

The biggest problem I see with college (not very good at spelling obviously lol)
Is the the teachers themselves are not very good (not saying all just in my experience) they no very little about real world plumbing just very basic stuff that could be picked up after a couple of months out on site

 

[fuzzy]

Im sorry thats your experience Gray, fortunately it isnt mine. In their defense they can only teach what is in the scheme, they dont have the authority to teach what they want. Plus every company is different, how would they know what each employer wanted/needed, they just have to do the basics and do it well

 

[gmac]

I understand other peoples views fully. I would look upon time-served as an old school term, if i was recruiting I would be quoting time-served or qualified plumber in the add, alot of old school boys don't have the quals but are very clued up in all aspects of the game,

 

[Blackcatgas]

The biggest problem I see with college (not very good at spelling obviously lol)
Is the the teachers themselves are not very good (not saying all just in my experience) they no very little about real world plumbing just very basic stuff that could be picked up after a couple of months out on site

This is the guy that taught me [DLMURL="http://www.ericmace.co.uk/experience.php"]Eric Mace[/DLMURL]
He is a legend, nobody played up in his lessons because we all had respect for him, out of the 3 lecturers we had only 1 was a bellend but to be fair he had forgotten more about plumbing than I know.

 

[gmac]

Is it a possibility that the tutors/teachers whatever you want to call them are entering the teaching game too soon and it should be mandatory to have a set number of years working on sites before allowing them teach the trade

 

[fuzzy]

it is advised that tutors have relevant industrial experience but as far as i know there is no minimum mount of time. for example you can get people who have flown through the qual, been on site one year and could be brilliant tutors. there can be people who have all the quals in the world and 40 years experience and may not be able to get their points across ie teach. Its difficult to put definites on it you just need a good balance of everything

to assess work in any trade you need to be qualified to advanced level and have a minimum of 5 years post qual experience

 

[markfxy]

Company I used to work for classed time served as either a 4 year apprenticeship with college or 7 years as an improver HVCA rules I think. Can't see anyone wanting to do 7 years now before they're qualified. Do they still have improvers?

 

[Gray0689]

Maybe just the tec near me tutors just ok
But the teaching sylibus is very much outdated to today's plumbing I'm only speaking for where I live we don't do lead we don't do any guttering
Yes teaches basic principles but this is over 4 years come on I learn more in first 6 months on site than I did at 4 years in tec lol

 

[fuzzy]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

 

[tamz]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

 

[fuzzy]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

 

[GQuigley67]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

 

[tamz]

i suggest you stop sending them to collage tamz, lol

Oh i made sure he learned lol

 

[fuzzy]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

mmmm i dont entirely agree. i think we always feel it was better years ago, i think theres a lot of good done in colleges. it is true to say with the expansion of plumbing trainees that colleges took on many new staff, they couldnt train them as teachers and assessors quick enough though, so whilst this was happening i wouldnt be surprised if the standard was lowered. i think with inspections and quality controls its hard for colleges not to keep high standards without sanctions against them, and with the introduction of the new qualification i think the temporary lowering of teaching will quickly rise again

 

[fuzzy]

Oh i made sure he learned lol

send em to college instead (sorry mate, couldn't resist)

 

[Gray0689]

Just remember, the plumbing qualification is about complete plumbing, not just what you choose to do onsite. It is there to give people all the underpinning knowledge and skills of the complete trade, i would call it out of date because your company choose not to do it.
The new diplomas have been updated considerably, the L3 has comprehensive system wiring, un-vented, condensing boiler install, fault finding, water regs, system design etc. If you consider all that basic then you are far more intelligent and skilled than me!!!

When you consider basic, are you referring to the level 2 only? that takes 2 years (for NVQ)

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

 

[Gray0689]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

That would be a very good thing

 

[GQuigley67]

must be too expensive lol

 

[fuzzy]

they should introduce a trade test like every other trade at the end of apprenticeship

we used to have this and it was changed to be continual assessment, i think all trades are the same. many smaller assessments throughout the year is easier to achieve imo. having said that, what was stopping somebody doing nothing for 2 years and then passing the end test?

 

[Gray0689]

I have much the same opinion of colleges as Gray.
4 lads i sent through collage and the standard of teaching definitely dropped over the years. So much so i complained to both the collage and Snipef with the last one. How can you pass an exam, or stupid module as they are now, and be totally clueless on the subject? It happens all the time because there is no need to actually memorise anything when you have the books in front of you.

I think it is an overall education thing though and not just confined to colleges.

You put it a lot beter than me tamz
To me learning is about hands on

 

[GQuigley67]

sparks, joiners, painters etc still do a trades test

 

[fuzzy]

Yes I call it basic nvq3 as I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing that's in there words we don't go gas over here we do oil
So I can't comment on gas side I did gas separate and never touched any natural just LPG
Unvented can be done in 2 days
Maybe your colleges are a lot better I don't know but where I live to be frank I think there crap
You say it gives complete training plumb up a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it
I saw boys who only did industrial plumbing and did not have a clue about domestic but still passed gave you ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not
That's my opinion

"un-vented" can be done in 2 days - only if you are experienced, not a newbie
"a couple of rads in black iron on industrial install lol what does that teach how to use a hand threader that's about it" They cannot teach you to install a complete office block or similar! thats for work to do, the college is there to give the underpinning skills, measure, cut, mark, knock off center to end of thread, thread joint, use jointing compound, tighten fitting, mark walls, fit rad level and put together then test. This can then be applied when on site to a larger scale
"ever heard of ANYONE failing I have not" ooh yes i have, its unlikely all will pass. what often happens is learners realise they cannot pass and its beyond them and they leave the course, technically they haven't failed, just left the course due to some circumstance. All exams are on line and I'd be surprised if most plumbers could walk in and pass without revision
"I see 2 of our boys doing it and they hate going as they learn nothing" I have heard young employees say they learn nothing at college, this is often because they are too lazy to learn, dont want to do the work and its easier to blame the college than it is to go back to work and tell the truth, this may not be the case with your 2, but it is the case in the majority of my experience


​What was your own experience when you went to college as an apprentice? did you do the NVQ3 or the C&G advanced certificate?