Mains Cold Water Supply - Think I had a cowboy plumber at my house !

[IATM]

Hi Guys,

I have had various plumbing issues in my house after having a few plumbers in and I cant seem to find one who knows what they are doing or how to fix issues so I have decided to investigate them one by one and fix them myself or tell the plumber what to do.

Roughly a year agoI had a leak in the mains cold water supply tap/stopcock under the kitchen sink - this got worse and worse and eventually we have a plumber in to "fix" this - he spent 2 hours apparently fixing it but said we could not open it full as that was not a good idea/good practice ....

This "not a good idea" he fobbed my parents off with I realize now was proboably because if you turn the stopcock more than half approx it starts to leak which leads me to think he diddnt fix it properly as he should have done and took 300 quid off me for the pleasure of doing.

Can you correct me if I am wrong but I should have the ability to turn it full to benefit from the full mains pressure ( I think this is having an affect in the upstairs gravity fed system I have in the two bathrooms)

any links to quality stopcocks etc I can use to tell the plumber to fix and any other notes when fixing this issue.

I would be really grateful for any help as I just can't seem to find anyone who can say yes thats the issue this is what it will be to fix it

happy to provide pics if need be

Thanks

 

[Mike Jackson]

It's entirely possible that the valve to the toilet has a flow restrictor fitted. If the "plumber" that fitted the taps didn't check they were suitable for low pressure it's unlikely he has removed the flow restrictor from the valve.

 

[glenno1]

Mebee a gate valve as said before or a stopcock that is not fully open on the line somewhere,or mebee a gate valve on the horizontal that has accumulated dirt

 

[Joncpi]

As the downstairs hot tap seems OK. Any gate valve on the tank is probably fully open. As said before check the diffusers on the taps. Often when you look closely at them you can see two small "flats" on either side. Carefully using an adjustable spanner you can remove them by turning them anticlockwise like a normal nut. That is anticlockwise when looking from underneath, not when looking down from the top. Dont use too much force if in any doubt ask a plumber. They can be cleaned by washing under the tap and then replaced. The toilet may still have a high pressure nozzle fitted and needs to be changed to a low pressure one. A high pressure nozzle can easily get partially blocked the hole is only about 2 or 3mm whereas the hole in a low pressure nozzle is much larger. The type of "ball valve" supplying water to your toilet does depend on the type of cistern you have. Lastly, if dirt has got into your low pressure system I have quite often found the "ball a fix" type valve shown above, if you have them, can also get dirt in it, as the hole in these, unless a full bore ball a fix, is quite small. Check the flexies you have as there may well be a ball a fix on one end of each of these. Is there a flexy with a ball a fix on the supply to the toilet? Check this. Sometimes it can be sufficient to simply close and open the valve a couple of times with a flat bladed screwdriver to clear any dirt, with the tap open. However doing this on the toilet can cause the dirt to move along the line to the "ball valve"

 

[WHPES]

A bit late now but the trouble is that less experienced so called plumbers (and the majority of DIY'ers) often don't realise that most modern taps and showers are not designed to work on old fashioned systems (i.e. gravity with header tanks). They may not have flow restrictors anyway.

TBH it is normal to pipe the last couple of metres to a shower with 15mm due to space constraints. The problem is more likely that the new shower is a modern type and not suitable for old fashioned low pressure gravity systems. A shower pump should fix the problem. Also the cold and hot feeds for the shower should come directly from the cistern and cylinder respectively and not be teed off some other supply.

 

[IATM]

A bit late now but the trouble is that less experienced so called plumbers (and the majority of DIY'ers) often don't realise that most modern taps and showers are not designed to work on old fashioned systems (i.e. gravity with header tanks). They may not have flow restrictors anyway.

TBH it is normal to pipe the last couple of metres to a shower with 15mm due to space constraints. The problem is more likely that the new shower is a modern type and not suitable for old fashioned low pressure gravity systems. A shower pump should fix the problem. Also the cold and hot feeds for the shower should come directly from the cistern and cylinder respectively and not be teed off some other supply.

I have to 100% agree with this - when I have asked many of them about how to tackle or look at taps that are better for low pressure they honestly look at me as if I am weird.

so just to give you guys an idea of what is going on in the house this is th set up I have in the airing cupboard



This is how the flexi connectors have been set up under the sink which I think is the major restrictor coupled with the fact that the mixer tap isnt probably catered for low pressure systems



this is the pipes running under the bath tub where he connected the smaller pipes in white) this runs under the tub but only i guess the cold pops out the wall for a shower fit - no idea where the other goes. the tub has two taps too -

I think the best thing for me to do is to have both the pipes (hot and cold) run up to the wall and have one of these fitted as it runs as a 3amp i believe, has an inbuilt pump to pump out 14 litres per minute even at a 0.1 bar water rate and seems like what i need even if it is a bit expensive. what you guys think.



Aspirante Thermostatic Power Shower - Chrome

 

[jtsplumbing]

Pic 1. Get rig of the gate valves & fit Full flow leaver valves
Pic 2. Change for full flow service valves
Pic 3. Flexi seams very long ?
Pic 4. Would think that both white pipes go to shower !

Why not if you have a new shower just fit a pump in cylinder cupboard ?

 

[acecharly]

What is the flow rate at your kitchen sink? is it much greater than the bathroom? the gland nut may not need replacing and simply need tightening its a little brass nut at the bottom of the handle if you look. In the bathroom you may find there are isolation valves on the pipes going up to your bath taps these are there to make it easy to change them or maintain them saving you turning the water of to the whole property take of the bath panel and have a look they may just be slightly cracked open if they are with the tap running adjust them with a flat headed screwdriver to the desired flow.

Hope this helps.

 

[acecharly]

never got to your pics before i posted just. That flexi under the sink looks kinked at the top its to long also you need to got to the end where the taps are on the bath and check for those isolation valves.

 

[IATM]

Pic 1. Get rig of the gate valves & fit Full flow leaver valves
Pic 2. Change for full flow service valves
Pic 3. Flexi seams very long ?
Pic 4. Would think that both white pipes go to shower !

Why not if you have a new shower just fit a pump in cylinder cupboard ?

pic 1: great advise - managed to find these and the second review shares your exact view (pasted below)
pic 2: sound advice again
Pic 3: 100% agree it is almost in like an S shape and it just cant help at all and I am sure these much be thinner inside that the outside let on
pic 4: no it doesnt - took off the bath cover last night and the cold has a joint which takes a pipe up into the wall, the hot water is just linked direct to the tape.

The pump idea is something I had first however every plumber I seem to ask to do it doesnt seem to want to do it and says they are not great but I hear otherwise online and from people on this forum. From my reading they are easy enough to fit and solves the problem they are designed to.
are they noisey? or can you can quiter ones? My plan was that if I did have one I would put some sound proofing in the airing cupboard and that would help enough to isolate the noise.

Any advise on what pump for the set up I have and would it be possible to run the new shower I will be fitting and also the electric shower in the en suite.

Last night I thought I need to find out if its the taps - decided to jab a screwdriver into the tap hole and try and tear off the mesh part at the end...

took off 1
2
3
4
layers of the mesh stuff!!!! - automatically the flow was much better - that got my thinking that the tap is designed to work under high pressure so is restricting it and also the poor connections below the sink are also not helping - all in all positive progress in resolving the issue. I have found a mixer that is designesd to specifically work on 0.1 bar pressure (wanted new taps anyway) so I will be buying that.


Full Bore Lever Ball Valve 22mm | NoLinkingToThis
Reliable and easy to fit27 Jul 2011
By [DLMURL="http://reviews.NoLinkingToThis/5873redes-en_gb/AdFB/profile.htm"]AdFB [/DLMURL]
, Glastonbury

"I have fitted many of these valves. They are 100% relaible and very easy to fit thanks to nice copper olives.
These are a far better bet than a gate valve as they don't sieze up and provide a complete air tight shut off.
I also use them instead of those screwdriver operated things which jam up restrict flow and leak

 

[IATM]

Hi aceharly - the flow to the kitchen sinks and WC is significantly better. I had the same thoughts as you - I was tempted to turn it up full and take a ahlf turn back and then tighten the gland nut that people have mentioned on this form - I will monitor if it leaks or not - if it does - it will be a simple change of the stopcock.


I will get a picture of under the tub later on tonight - I have a feeling it might not be the best way to have the piping set up in terms of having the best flow.....

 

[acecharly]

If it was me there id change the stopcock for the price of the things anyway there only about £7 instantly rules out that being a problem but simply nipping it up will probably do the trick. Leaving the hot tap aside which can be more complicated, if the cold tap on the bath is running slow while the kitchen sink tap is good there must be something stopping the flow like a valve below the bath taps as the cold on the bath should be hardly any different to the kitchen. With regards to the hot pipe the main problem i can see is that both pipes running under your bath are 15mm where as the hot would be better suited to have a 22mm run. But first things first check behind that panel for those valves.

 

[jtsplumbing]

Looking at the pics again it looks like the up stairs is beeing fed by low pressure (2 x gate valves) these could be faulty ! replace these first !! Then it looks like new bath has been fitted ? if so then the 2 white pipes need to be 22mm up to the taps ! Shower should have its own seperate supply ! New electric shower connect to mains water ! But find out what the water pressure is in your house,! as you may need to fit a pressure reduceing valve, (Read instructions for new shower) any other service valves you fit need to be full bore, more so on low pressure systems.

 

[Will_D]

No one has asked "How is the cold water at the kitchen sink" This is fed from the mains via the suspect stop-cock and the non-return valve

If you are getting a good flow and pressure at the sink then the problem is not under the sink!

Hope this helps

Willl

 

[IATM]

Could I not run a set up similar to this?



I think I have this set up in the house and all I would need to do is get a surrey flange fitted for locked air and the pump. going to have a look tonight to establish exactly how the supply of water runs to the basin and toilet.... Not sure if they run off the two pipes in my pic doing to the tub but under the floorboards.

ps there has always been a bath in that place - it was changed 9 months ago when this "plumbing was done, prob to take into account different postion of taps

 

[IATM]

No one has asked "How is the cold water at the kitchen sink" This is fed from the mains via the suspect stop-cock and the non-return valve

If you are getting a good flow and pressure at the sink then the problem is not under the sink!

Hope this helps

Willl

Cold water at the kitchen sink is epic if I turn the taps on full the pressure of the water makes a hollow drum sounds against the bottom of the sink and splashes me in the process lol - now I just need even half that upstairs LOL

 

[IATM]

this is what has been done under my tub - look ok to you? me is thinking maybe not .....



me thinks this sort of set up would seriously restrict flow to the shower outlet - is there not a better sort of Y connector to split off to the shower and taps or am I thinking this the wrong way?

 

[AWheating]

that pipework is very poorly fitted, the isolator will reduce flow to the shower as its not a full bore. your bath supplys should have isolators also and the flexis will also reduce flow rates and your bath should be fitting on some timber braces to stop it going through your chipboard floor.

i would have also have fitted timber battons around the walls to support the bath side ........ so to sum it up your bathroom installer is a dix.

 

[IATM]

that pipework is very poorly fitted, the isolator will reduce flow to the shower as its not a full bore. your bath supplys should have isolators also and the flexis will also reduce flow rates and your bath should be fitting on some timber braces to stop it going through your chipboard floor.

I think you will be shocked at what my parents were charged to do this work by a different plumber...... to input that piping and take one up to the wall

..... 280 pounds

how should this be done and with parts - ill do it myself - if you have links to parts that would be useful - I am quite handy with most things and rather do it myself now.

ps, he is also the person who tore out three massive holes in my chipboard like the one u see in my picture - i suspect he done this to see where the pipes were going..... *rubbing head* at the madness

 

[AWheating]

first thing to do is wined the legs up on the bath and put some timber under them to support the bath on the weak floor.

slide some 4x2 if possible under the front legs and the back legs (so 2 bits of wood, 1 under the front legs, 1 under the back legs)

 

[Millsy 82]

this is what has been done under my tub - look ok to you? me is thinking maybe not .....

View attachment 7571

me thinks this sort of set up would seriously restrict flow to the shower outlet - is there not a better sort of Y connector to split off to the shower and taps or am I thinking this the wrong way?

The pipes are undersized off gravity you should have 22mm pipes going to the bath.

And also looking from the pipework chances are you have an AIRLOCK in it ( I did keep saying it earlier just to point out)

 

[AWheating]

good spot, undersized pipes also. I would ask for money back from the cowboy fitter.

 

[IATM]

The pipes are undersized off gravity you should have 22mm pipes going to the bath.

And also looking from the pipework chances are you have an AIRLOCK in it ( I did keep saying it earlier just to point out)

can I ask a silly question - the hot and cold run under th floorboard )the HW tank is literally half a meter away in the airing cupboard. the hot and cold run directly under the tub and come up via a 90 degree bend per pic on page 4 to take 2 reduced white pipes back to the other end of the tub where the taps are.

WHY DID THIS MUPPET NOT JUST TAKE IT FROM UNDER THE FLOORBOARD WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE PICTURE ON THIS PAGE -WOULD THIS NOT HELP THE FLOW INSTEAD OF THE WATER HAVING TO DO A MASSIVE U TURN BACK TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE ....

time for a twinnings tea - two tea bags lol

 

[Millsy 82]

can I ask a silly question - the hot and cold run under th floorboard )the HW tank is literally half a meter away in the airing cupboard. the hot and cold run directly under the tub and come up via a 90 degree bend per pic on page 4 to take 2 reduced white pipes back to the other end of the tub where the taps are.

WHY DID THIS MUPPET NOT JUST TAKE IT FROM UNDER THE FLOORBOARD WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE PICTURE ON THIS PAGE -WOULD THIS NOT HELP THE FLOW INSTEAD OF THE WATER HAVING TO DO A MASSIVE U TURN BACK TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE ....

time for a twinnings tea - two tea bags lol

I think you just answered your own question with muppet

 

[gavinwilson]

Probably wrong but shouldn't the feed to the bath be 22 mm pipe

sent from my annoying box

 

[AWheating]

looking at it the bathroom fitter probably cant solder/fit copper??