D
dontknowitall
Cracking argument in the blog!
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Discuss MCS Accreditation in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at Plumbers Forums
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Toddyplumb
Gas Engineer
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- 983
Simon you will need a QMS with a customer complaints procedure and a paper trail from it.
The Subcontractor route : when you pay a subcontractor there is a bit of paperwork to do and you deduct tax on behlf of the revenue and you then pay the revenue on your subcontractors behalf (unless your subcontractor has managed to agree with the revenue payment gross) At worst you will be deducting 30% from their labour as Tax. Subbies know this and put their prices up . You will need to be VAT registered so that you can charge at 5% . You will be better off employing VAT registered subbies as well , for similar reasons
The Subcontractor route : when you pay a subcontractor there is a bit of paperwork to do and you deduct tax on behlf of the revenue and you then pay the revenue on your subcontractors behalf (unless your subcontractor has managed to agree with the revenue payment gross) At worst you will be deducting 30% from their labour as Tax. Subbies know this and put their prices up . You will need to be VAT registered so that you can charge at 5% . You will be better off employing VAT registered subbies as well , for similar reasons
M
MickW
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Well third time lucky, deleted my first two posts before I posted them, beer and politics just don't mix.
Firstly, Electrofy, if you could just clarify are you a plumber/heating engineer? If not what do you do, if you don't mind sharing?
Secondly, could you expand on 'administration'. Mine at the moment consists of estimating, invoicing and bookkeeping, all of which I do by myself as a sole trader.
Thirdly, used many a QMS, dating back to my apprentice days right through to my 'time out' period when I was working for a pharmeceutical company which was quality assured to death. Couldn't take a dump without following procedure. All well and good for injectables, batch traceability and trying your damnedest not to kill people. But taking a product like solar thermal, installing it correctly having been trained and assessed to do so using qms is complete overkill.
Fourthly, setting aside the part that I could go out and 'buy' a qms and 'adopt' as you state (something that has previously been stated by easy mcs, site sponsor, is not the way to do it), is that really something I would want to do when we are still awaiting just what the RHI will do for the domestic market come 2012.
To summarise, it appears, or as you say it works for you, good. The general concensus is that it will drive unnecessary cost towards the 'one man band brigade' and ultimately onto the customer. As the system currently stands I cannot see it working for me, doesn't mean I won't install renewables though, just that I'll do it whatever way I can to avoid MCS involvement and the costs involved with it.
Rant over.
Firstly, Electrofy, if you could just clarify are you a plumber/heating engineer? If not what do you do, if you don't mind sharing?
Secondly, could you expand on 'administration'. Mine at the moment consists of estimating, invoicing and bookkeeping, all of which I do by myself as a sole trader.
Thirdly, used many a QMS, dating back to my apprentice days right through to my 'time out' period when I was working for a pharmeceutical company which was quality assured to death. Couldn't take a dump without following procedure. All well and good for injectables, batch traceability and trying your damnedest not to kill people. But taking a product like solar thermal, installing it correctly having been trained and assessed to do so using qms is complete overkill.
Fourthly, setting aside the part that I could go out and 'buy' a qms and 'adopt' as you state (something that has previously been stated by easy mcs, site sponsor, is not the way to do it), is that really something I would want to do when we are still awaiting just what the RHI will do for the domestic market come 2012.
To summarise, it appears, or as you say it works for you, good. The general concensus is that it will drive unnecessary cost towards the 'one man band brigade' and ultimately onto the customer. As the system currently stands I cannot see it working for me, doesn't mean I won't install renewables though, just that I'll do it whatever way I can to avoid MCS involvement and the costs involved with it.
Rant over.
Well I still do not have my MCS accreditation, I am still signing off my MCS installations and I am inspecting other installers installations.
I still say that the MCS is a complete joke and completely irrelevent, the main problem that I am finding is that installers need to be educated in the correct sizing and correct installations of these products, The fact that many of the inspections that I do involve MCS accredited engineers and companies proves that the MCS QMS system is irrelevant as I am constantly looking into problems that are caused by incorrect instalation.
Its all about money and I can assure everyone I will never be MCS accredited as long as the focus is on QMS and not on installation.
A prime example is the fact that if your Gas Safe you only have to look at the gas appliance not the whole system and MCS is the same when there is a problem the first thing that is blamed is the appliance, when I turn up to sort out a problem with an appliance that is not working properly I can guarantee that the majority of the time there is nothing wrong with the appliance, but there is always something wrong with the system and usually they are basic fundamental mistakes that even a first year loveslave properly beaten would never make.
So as more of these regulations keep coming in the more I am being dubbed a cowboy as I refuse to pay to become a member of these organisations. I am also debating as to whether I will be renewing my Gas Safe this year as I am sick and tired of not getting value for money
I still say that the MCS is a complete joke and completely irrelevent, the main problem that I am finding is that installers need to be educated in the correct sizing and correct installations of these products, The fact that many of the inspections that I do involve MCS accredited engineers and companies proves that the MCS QMS system is irrelevant as I am constantly looking into problems that are caused by incorrect instalation.
Its all about money and I can assure everyone I will never be MCS accredited as long as the focus is on QMS and not on installation.
A prime example is the fact that if your Gas Safe you only have to look at the gas appliance not the whole system and MCS is the same when there is a problem the first thing that is blamed is the appliance, when I turn up to sort out a problem with an appliance that is not working properly I can guarantee that the majority of the time there is nothing wrong with the appliance, but there is always something wrong with the system and usually they are basic fundamental mistakes that even a first year loveslave properly beaten would never make.
So as more of these regulations keep coming in the more I am being dubbed a cowboy as I refuse to pay to become a member of these organisations. I am also debating as to whether I will be renewing my Gas Safe this year as I am sick and tired of not getting value for money
Toddyplumb
Gas Engineer
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- 983
The only problem I have with MCS is COST. Yet more money for the plumbing heating engineer to find for more hangers on .
QMS no problem as long as it is tailored to our needs
QMS no problem as long as it is tailored to our needs
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Cheers Electrofy, appreciate you taking the time to respond and a very interesting response, particularly around the cost side. Theres been many a post on here indicating costings way in excess of what you have paid.
Definitely a lot more food for thought.
M
MickW
Just a quick update...
The document I previously posted, calling for QMS exemption for small business, has been adopted without amendment as the briefing document for the campaign by a number of leading players in the industry including manufacturers such as Vaillant, Baxi and Worcester.
It is early days yet, but I am encouraged by the support I am getting to present a united industry front and we are currently arranging meetings with DECC and other officials.
In case you missed it, here is the document again: Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
The document I previously posted, calling for QMS exemption for small business, has been adopted without amendment as the briefing document for the campaign by a number of leading players in the industry including manufacturers such as Vaillant, Baxi and Worcester.
It is early days yet, but I am encouraged by the support I am getting to present a united industry front and we are currently arranging meetings with DECC and other officials.
In case you missed it, here is the document again: Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
[QUOTE
without the QMS and the details required for business to operate to a high level of quality control the renewable industry will fall flat on its face.[/QUOTE]
I think you may find that when the funding for FIT and the Greendeal or whatever form it will take runs out then MCS may fall flat on its face.
On the funding issue How did you manage to do it for just £550? NAPIT who are providing my Certification for £380 (1 technology), REAL assurance at £204, GEMSERV at £110 all plus VAT. That makes it £832 for my one technology?
without the QMS and the details required for business to operate to a high level of quality control the renewable industry will fall flat on its face.[/QUOTE]
I think you may find that when the funding for FIT and the Greendeal or whatever form it will take runs out then MCS may fall flat on its face.
On the funding issue How did you manage to do it for just £550? NAPIT who are providing my Certification for £380 (1 technology), REAL assurance at £204, GEMSERV at £110 all plus VAT. That makes it £832 for my one technology?
M
MickW
Without the support of the independent installer, the UK will not reach it's renewable targets and the QMS is a barrier to independent installers.
Large firms have the infrastructure to cope with the QMS, but it is disproportionate for one man bands and other smaller firms. Many thousands of these businesses have been trading successfully for years and are highly qualified & experienced engineers and to suggest that they would contribute to the renewable industry falling flat on it's face is ridiculous and insulting. If it came to a choice between a qualified heating engineer, trained in solar, but without a complaints procedure or meeting log OR an MCS accredited double glazing firm, I know which I and most other members of the public would choose.
I don't intend to get dragged into an argument with you, electrofy - you are just not credible to me! Interesting that you have only just joined - HMM!
Large firms have the infrastructure to cope with the QMS, but it is disproportionate for one man bands and other smaller firms. Many thousands of these businesses have been trading successfully for years and are highly qualified & experienced engineers and to suggest that they would contribute to the renewable industry falling flat on it's face is ridiculous and insulting. If it came to a choice between a qualified heating engineer, trained in solar, but without a complaints procedure or meeting log OR an MCS accredited double glazing firm, I know which I and most other members of the public would choose.
I don't intend to get dragged into an argument with you, electrofy - you are just not credible to me! Interesting that you have only just joined - HMM!
E
eaton
Glad to hear your earning from it. My total cost was around £1600 that was training at local bpec place and my qms plus napit for heat pump/ solar. Got my assessment on the 20 July so hoping my outlay is as productive
M
MickW
Good luck!
Once the funding runs out then yes the scheme may well close but this was not the point I was making.
The REAL Fee is not included in my figures as I was a member of an OFT prior to joining MCS so was just a simple transfer over and my figures were excluding VAT as i am VAT registered so i claimed this back.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for making the funding issue clear.
I find the QMS completely irrelevent when I am inspecting MCS accredited installers and unregisterd installers and DIYers and finding the DIYers and unregistered installers doing a better job than the MCS guys and I will still refuse to become MCS as for my mind it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth and is definately noy value for money for the customer the government or the Installer and I defy anyone to call me a cowboy because I am refusing to be MCS accredited, by the way signed anotherone off today.
surely MCS is just one step too far when we already have ISO9001, HSE, part P, water regs etc are they saying these regs dont work, as unguided says having MCS is no guarantee of a quality installation just means youve got a years supply of bog paper when you've had your install completed, If youre really lucky it'll been done by a bunch of double glazing cowboys thats a sure sign of a quality install!
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so in essence you can install them without being MCS ? what does the customer miss out on then ?
The only thing MCS is for is access to the government grants which are there to stimulate the market. Once the funding has dried up then I believe MCS will no longer be an issue and the double glazing experts will have stopped installing.
In essence, if you are MCS registered and the product is MCS then your customer will have access to FIT's and the RHI when it arrives.
Dont forget its a government scheme which, as we all know, are the best value for money and fairest schemes in the world!!!
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It depends on the technology, but for FITs its 43.3p per kWh generated by Solar PV.
C
capitanpugwash
Why do they need signing off? No agenda, just no idea about the regs behind solar installations...
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so if talking sake i installed a solar panel hot water system, would I be able to sign it off or do i need to get an independant inspector in ?
As it stands a one eyed blind monkey can fit a heat pump onto an innapropriate system but if he can do the paperwork he can sign it off for the RHI if it ever comes in, but if the best plumber ever born fits one on the best system ever if hes not accredited it dont mean a thing, unfortunately I witness it everyday
I dont know mate, Im only doing heat pumps at the moment. As far as I'm aware you could install it without being MCS registered as a subcontractor for a company who is. That way the customer gets any grants available.
Hi EasyMCS I was wondering if you would be interested in joining our campaign to assist small businesses, by doing away with MCS, I would be very interested to hear your views on the subject whether for or against, as you will be aware there are many small independant businesses who are against it and I beleive you could contribute by bringing a bit of balance to the discussion, or why not join and back the campaign or just post on the this blog Trade Only: Over-regulation is the Biggest Barrier to Renewable take-up
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