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Might have a word with him.

He's away at the moment up north. He's paid a college that actually get you to install a solar thermal system, in a house. Rather than it just being classroom based.
 
If I can help just PM me yer number and I will give yer a call tommorow
 
unguided1 said:
Hi

I just had a thought obviously you are a market expert because every trade magazine I look in I see your advert you are also sponsoring this forum, So are you actualy MCS accredited in any technology also do you have any one that does inspections on any of the MCS technologies
Having just done a quick search on the MCS website I can not see your company on there.

Regards
Mike
Click to expand...

Hi Mike,

We are not an MCS Accredited Installation company as we do not install the MCS Technologies, we train installers such as yourselves and support you through MCS Accreditation. Otherwise you would be being trained by your competition.
 
eaton said:
hi everyone, just signed up here trying to get some info, heres where i am, im a time served plumber/gas heating engineer for the last 14 years, am 30 years old, looked into the renewables last year and as got asked to do a solar thermal job, then the mcs bit came up, so went on a heat pump 3 day course and a 3 day solar course, total cost £700, then joined up with napit for heat pump and solar cost around £900 not heard from them in 9 months and their attitude is terrible but im still with them till june i think yet im nowhere nearer, then i fitted 2 solar jobs and very happy with outcome, customers are chuffed, then found easymcs, who i have payed roughly £700 for the qms, which i admit i could never provide, time spent getting to where i think im ready fiiling out that qms roughly 50 hours. Might seem a lot but im trying to get it all in my head. Got asked by builder friend doing his own house about ashp, so got nu heat to supply, finished it 2 weeks back and im more confused now than ever, commissioning engineer comes out and says right nu heat will sign it off for customer, hold on i say i need this for my assessment as it had solar too, he says youll never pass, was happy with install but said paperwork wise dont go there, basically said unless i did an umbrella for heat pumps forget it (only thing is depending who you go with you have to fit their stuff), so here i am bolloxed as customer needs it signing so let him do it, he told me if i use this as assessment i cant use any of the drawings, sap calcs etc etc as they are nu heats and not mine. so called nu heat today re umbrella scheme as to be fair id probably use them just for the heat pumps and they are offering installers free heat pump mcs with a purchace, yet to hear back so cant comment. Thing is there is no way i have the software to provide what nu heat did and if this is what they want i might as well give up, id like to be able to fit what heat pump I like but if they are going to be that bad on assessment why bother. So im going to call easymcs and see what they say as im now in a position where i have no heat pump to show and napit said they want a ground and air source example. Thing is we are not getting the jobs unless your mcs so vicious circle me thinks, i honestly doubt id fit more than 2 a year if im lucky. Option now is unless easy mcs tell me otherwise, right off napits £900 last year and go heat pumps through nu heat and do my own solar. Oh plus you need to buy heat pump book tr30 at £30ish.

Ill have a chat with nu heat and easymcs tommorrow as im of the opinion im now screwed without having any heat pumps to install.
The paperwork involved with all this is not going to improve me much at all, its all about paying money out for systems that are so over the top its untrue, I have all my qualifications and all I want is to go and fit a decent job for a customer yet we seem entangled in this paoer trail mess. I wish i could put all the file onm here and show how much bull **** is in it because im really at the point where i dont give a toss for renewables any more.

Kev Fisk
K FISK PLUMBING AND HEATING LTD
Click to expand...

Hi Kevin,

I have asked one of our mentors to get in touch with you discuss your MCS Accreditation.

Let me know if you have any more queries.

Many Thanks
 
Thanks for the call lads really put my mind at ease, I'm going to ignore Nu heat, seems like they just want you in their little bubble fitting all their gear, surprise surprise, going to call napit and tell them not to bother anymore either, I'd rather wipe off that cost and move somewhere else, hopefully in a couple of weeks I'll have a bit more input for everyone but for now, thanks easymcs team bunch of top blokes
 
I'm booked on the BPEC heat pump course next month, I was fully intending to go down the MCS route but after reading your history Kev I don't know if Ill bother now. My mate is doing Solar PV and we were clubbing together to get MCS accredited. I was intending to join NAPIT too! but that looks like a non-starter.
Why has the renewables market place been throttled by all the different certification bodies with their hands out? The high costs dont seem to be justified within a relatively new industry sector, if the market is there then surely having lower costs for smaller companies would increase the take up of installers? It doesn't make sense to me.
 
EasyMCSLtd said:
Hi Mike,

We are not an MCS Accredited Installation company as we do not install the MCS Technologies, we train installers such as yourselves and support you through MCS Accreditation. Otherwise you would be being trained by your competition.
Click to expand...

Fair point so how about your company leading the the call to lobby the government to fight for the one man band to cut the red tape and make it easier and cheaper for one man bands doing limited installs,

I realise that this might cut your profit margins but then surely its better to have a lot of people who can afford to do it.
 
I think the manufacturers should offer schemes such as nu-heats umbrella scheme maybe if you do a manufacturers course and get approved installer status they could sort out the MCS side of things which would surely lead to more sales of that brand
 
I think the Government has to look very closely as to who is benefiting from this scheme, from where I am it doesn't look like the installer is getting anything, in fact we are being charged in order to help Britain meet its CO2 targets, the consumer is also having to meet a higher installation cost due to small businesses having to pass it on. The manufacturers are paying in order to get their products approved. The only real incentive to get involved with MCS is to open up as a training centre or certification body.
Before I looked at it I usually accepted certification as a cost of doing business, now I see they are the business, they provide nothing and all they appear to be doing is milking our industry.
 
Why do we need schemes to check that we keep customers' names and addresses and mark every single appointment on their record and keep notes on the conversations or whatever these schemes entail? OFTEC doesn't require this detail, nor GasSafe (I suspect).

What the customer wants is to be able to phone their plumber/heating engineer and ask him (and her!) for the various options on renewables. They'll want a fairly good knowledge and opinions on solar thermal, ground source, wind (hot air?), photovoltaics etc. They'll want to know the pros and cons of these and what would probably be the best system(s) for their situation.

They'll want to know the total cost of installing (including VAT) and will appreciate being told about the on-going costs. They'll want information on things like feed-in-tariffs and other government grants.

Finally, they'll want a system that is installed correctly, to the current regulations and one that works and saves them money.

None of these previous three paragraphs applies to keeping details of appointments, who was seen, for how long and all that stuff. If the installer/plumber/heating engineer can't be bothered to keep his customers' telephone numbers and directions on where they live, then that installer is going to run out of customers.

What I want is knowledge on how to install these systems properly, advantages and disadvantages of the different systems, the costs of each type of system, knowledge on repairs and how to identify faults and how to repair and an ID card showing I have these relevant qualifications. I don't need to have someone teach me how to create and maintain a database or how to write letters or how to document loads of meaningless bumph.

I know I continue to gripe about this MCS stuff but please note that this time I'm not on about the money. If I want qualifications and someone to teach me then I have to pay for it. I don't expect this for free. What I don't want someone to teach me and don't want the barrier of keeping a telephone and address book and learning how to write an email. And I especially don't want to pay hard earned money on "learning" this stuff and having it done to the authorities' rules.
 
I have heard very recently that there is a proposal to raise the 'amount per install' for an MCS installation from £5 to around £15, what would people's view be on this?

Would it make much difference in the greater scheme of things or would it be seen as another barrier to becoming registered and fitting these technologies?
 
I have been following this thread with a great deal of frustration, because I know that what most of you are saying is true. MCS accreditation is too expensive and too complicated for smaller installers!

Some of you may remember that I'm the guy that started the petition and campaign for the Boiler Scrappage scheme. Once the scheme was announced, I spent an incredible amount of time talking to the media and the main message that I gave to the public then was to make sure they get more than one quote for their boiler change. This was to ensure that the utility companies, with their massive marketing budgets, did not get the lion's share of the work. (Remember that within hours of the scheme being announced, BG & Npower matched the £400 grant with £400 of their own)

The message seems to have hit home! The utility companies were, on average, 30% more expensive than independent installers (60% in some places), BUT of all the boiler replacement jobs, only 17% were fitted by the utility companies and 83% were fitted by independent installers.

My fear is that those pleasant reading figures will be reversed when renewables take off unless something is done to remove the MCS barrier for small installers.

I don't really have any good news for you at the moment, except to say that I am in campaigning mode again!

I am currently working to unite the industry in order to get the message across to the government that they will not reach their renewables target without getting smaller installers on board and to get them on board, MCS MUST be less expensive and less complicated - my own belief is that the QMS side of accreditation should be scrapped entirely and should be competency based only.

I will keep you informed on here as the campaign progresses.
 
Some of us here might be willing to assist in one way or another as many of us want to:

Get started in renewables without massive expense and time consuming admin
Help our customers become more environmentally friendly
Provide a good, safe and workable installation
Keep some of the payment for our wages instead of spending it all in administration
etc, etc, etc

If we can help (just one example would be to write to our MP with a list of facts on how difficult the QMS is and how to phrase the letter) please feel free to shout and/or start a thread where we can set out some arguments.
 
MickW said:
I have been following this thread with a great deal of frustration, because I know that what most of you are saying is true. MCS accreditation is too expensive and too complicated for smaller installers!

Some of you may remember that I'm the guy that started the petition and campaign for the Boiler Scrappage scheme. Once the scheme was announced, I spent an incredible amount of time talking to the media and the main message that I gave to the public then was to make sure they get more than one quote for their boiler change. This was to ensure that the utility companies, with their massive marketing budgets, did not get the lion's share of the work. (Remember that within hours of the scheme being announced, BG & Npower matched the £400 grant with £400 of their own)

The message seems to have hit home! The utility companies were, on average, 30% more expensive than independent installers (60% in some places), BUT of all the boiler replacement jobs, only 17% were fitted by the utility companies and 83% were fitted by independent installers.

My fear is that those pleasant reading figures will be reversed when renewables take off unless something is done to remove the MCS barrier for small installers.

I don't really have any good news for you at the moment, except to say that I am in campaigning mode again!

I am currently working to unite the industry in order to get the message across to the government that they will not reach their renewables target without getting smaller installers on board and to get them on board, MCS MUST be less expensive and less complicated - my own belief is that the QMS side of accreditation should be scrapped entirely and should be competency based only.

I will keep you informed on here as the campaign progresses.
Click to expand...

Hi Mickw

The fact that you have form in executing this type of campaign and also have the contacts as well is extremely encouraging, I would be more than willing to assist you. I can honestly say that I do not envy the task Having tried to deal with government departments and MP,s on other issues before, ( complete bunch of brainless muppets) I am much happier and more comfortable with a lump hammer in me hand than I am with putting a pen to paper so with this in mind I would be more than happy to throw me lump hammer at an MP or two, given half the chance.

I also Like the words you use about uniting the industry and I realise that it can only be done one step at a time but one thing I would like to see that would assist one man bands is some way of merging all technologies under a one off payment system, but as I say one step at a time.
Regards
Mike
 
It was good to meet Toddyplumb at the BDR training centre today, where we were discussing the hoops required to be jumped through to fulfil the requirements of the MCS Management system.

It made me even more certain that MCS has been designed for bigger firms and is totally disproportionate for small businesses!!!
 
Nice to meet you Mick .
I agree it is designed for bigger firms. I am lucky in one respect as I have dealt with similar systems in the past, and it is different/strange/a pain etc.
If the entire plumbing industry was properly regulated / licenced there should be no need for any of this extra crap we have to do and have to repeat every few years.
I would add it was us (a few installers) who initially asked BDR for help with this as we could, like you ,see it as being a problem for the small installer and I appreciate their time in using us as guinea pigs for the course.
I think am going to pusue the MCS (not that I agree with it !) I will keep you all informed of my trials and tribulations.
 
electrofy said:
Hi All,

I am sorry to sound like teachers pet but I cant help but think some of the meaning behind the QMS is being missed in this thread. I was of the same opinion as most in this thread when i first started looking at the QMS requirements but i soon and thank fully understood the requirement when i had my first customer complaint who tried to tell me i had said i would do somthing on the job that i had never quoted nor priced for. I had followed the procedures within my QMS to the letter and could pull out my Quotation and order confirmation along with the T&C's set out in my contract of sale leaving the customer without a leg to stand on and preventing them from holding money back on the job i had completed. I have also started to use sub contractors following the procedures outlined by MCS and i have now a record of the contractors qualifications and when they need to be reviewed to ensure they maintain compliant.

I hold a quaterly meeting (internal review) with my business partner where we get the chance to address any issues and record them to ensure they are rectified resulting in my business operating in a professional and correct manner which my customer deserve with when hadning over the money that these systems cost.

I have to say i am a big fan of my QMS and i think this will stop the "quote on the back of a *** packet " installers from entering the renewable sector, which i am extremely in favor of!
Click to expand...

Each to their own but I don't need a QMS to show a customer what I included and excluded in an estimate.
 
You may not Simon , but then you may not want MCS.
The subcontractor route is one way to go , but then the costs start going up , the contractors price high to cover the cost of the Tax you are deducting , your time doing paperwork goes up (CIS deductions )
 
Please explain?

My response was to the first paragraph and a customer complaint about what was included in a quote. I can do that without a QMS, I would hope with the anticipated cost and effort to attain MCS it's going to give me more than I can do at the moment without one!

Be interested if you could expand on the sub-contractor route.

Cheers,

Simon.
 
electrofy said:
Hi All,

I am sorry to sound like teachers pet but I cant help but think some of the meaning behind the QMS is being missed in this thread. I was of the same opinion as most in this thread when i first started looking at the QMS requirements but i soon and thank fully understood the requirement when i had my first customer complaint who tried to tell me i had said i would do somthing on the job that i had never quoted nor priced for. I had followed the procedures within my QMS to the letter and could pull out my Quotation and order confirmation along with the T&C's set out in my contract of sale leaving the customer without a leg to stand on and preventing them from holding money back on the job i had completed. I have also started to use sub contractors following the procedures outlined by MCS and i have now a record of the contractors qualifications and when they need to be reviewed to ensure they maintain compliant.

I hold a quaterly meeting (internal review) with my business partner where we get the chance to address any issues and record them to ensure they are rectified resulting in my business operating in a professional and correct manner which my customer deserve with when hadning over the money that these systems cost.

I have to say i am a big fan of my QMS and i think this will stop the "quote on the back of a *** packet " installers from entering the renewable sector, which i am extremely in favor of!
Click to expand...

Each to their own, I'm in favour of a quality management system too, I just don't agree that the particular quality management system is designed for the industry as a whole. The one-man-band installers (incidentally not all of us estimate on the back of *** packets) would be considerably more out of pocket in adapting these systems unlike the big guns in the industry who already have these departments in place. It seems like it is more a case of those who already have these systems "ringfencing" the market for their own use. One way is to make the MCS less affordable for the little guy, lets face it if it was too easy we would all be doing it, demand would increase and prices would drop. This would possibly spur on the economy and might even make some headway in achieving the CO2 targets that have been set. Wow, What a crazy idea for a Friday eh?
 
Iocchipinti said:
I have heard very recently that there is a proposal to raise the 'amount per install' for an MCS installation from £5 to around £15, what would people's view be on this?

Would it make much difference in the greater scheme of things or would it be seen as another barrier to becoming registered and fitting these technologies?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I meant to reply earlier - you are right, it is £15 now.

I'm don't think that it will be a significant extra barrier - the whole QMS part of MCS is the barrier...
 
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