Mr Plumber Horror Story

[MorrG]

Damn, I almost went with these guys...

Customers locked out after firm goes bust

Feel bad for anyone who lost money

There’s so many dodgy training centres out there.

 

[Old Account]

Damn, I almost went with these guys...

Customers locked out after firm goes bust

Feel bad for anyone who lost money

There’s so many dodgy training centres out there.

I had same problem in Kent with another company 2 years ago and everyone paid so much money including me and what did we get nothing ... no certificates that we last the Theorie nothing at all. They just run away with all the money. All the big companies get laid but you as a tradesman you won’t see a penny. That’s called legal stealing. There is no legal body to sort thing s like this, that would never happen in Europe.

 

[MorrG]

I had one guy lie directly to my face. He told me that NVQ’s weren’t a thing anymore and that C&G certificates were now the new standard. He tried selling me a 6035-03 certificate for £6500! What’s worse is he said if was ‘pay as you learn’ so as long as you paid back the full amount eventually you’d be alright if you missed payments now and then, this was nonsense as reading the small print informed me that there would be ‘servere consequences for missing payments’ thankfully I didn’t sign with that training centre as I would probably still be paying them back now.

 

[rpm]

I had same problem in Kent with another company 2 years ago and everyone paid so much money including me and what did we get nothing . no certificates that we last the Theorie nothing at all. They just run away with all the money. All the big companies get laid but you as a tradesman you won’t see a penny. That’s called legal stealing. There is no legal body to sort thing s like this, that would never happen in Europe.

Who calls it legal stealing Ron and what makes you so sure it wouldn`t happen in Europe? Companies go to the wall all over the world.

 

[Old Account]

Who calls it legal stealing Ron and what makes you so sure it wouldn`t happen in Europe? Companies go to the wall all over the world.

I call it leagal stealing ... People get ripped off and they want see a lenny afterwards. How often that happens the lasy 2 years ... you havent got any legal body which helps those People who went through such a time. I do t think its nice to pay 5k and seeing f.oh in the end. Who wins, the guys who run the company ... another say they Open 7nder a different name and ripping thousand of other People off. I know it wont happen in germany because there is a legal body where you get your monet back. I agree everywhere in the world companies go in liquidation but Here in uk it’s just too often. Sorry, but it ain’t right ... I have been there and know how it feels

 

[gmartine]

Aren't these the sh*t sticks who tried to promote a plumbers app here?

 

[MorrG]

I made an inquiry with them and then sent me two emails and called me four times! I even said on the first call that I’d think about it and call them back but they were very Persistent. A real college would never do that, feel bad for the people that lost money trying to better themselves.

 

[Jim Goodenough]

The individuals who devise such crooked schemes 'should' have assets to the value of what they rip genuine, hard-working people off stripped from them!
There should be system that the 'hard-working, honest individual, who wants to learn' gets reimbursed IN FULL...

 

[leelister6]

Would paying for courses by credit card afford some protection?

 

[CHRISX]

Would paying for courses by credit card afford some protection?

Hello leelister6 / All,

Thanks to leelister6 for mentioning the possibility of obtaining Credit card refunds - that is a definite possibility.

I do hope that this will be helpful to anyone who has paid for Training courses by Credit card and has not received the training or part of it:

The `Consumer Credit Act 1974 - Section 75` gives protection for all Credit card payments of between £100.00 and £30,000.

Putting it very simply if one pays for something that you either do not receive or is faulty and the Company / Seller refuses to resolve the situation or give a refund - or as in this case has ceased trading having taken payments but have not provided the training - You can claim a full refund from your Credit card provider.

They do not have to be able to reclaim the money back from the Company - the Credit card provider has to accept the loss - that is part of their responsibility as `Approved Lenders` who are regulated by various regulatory bodies and who have to abide by all of the regulations contained in the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

For Refunds in cases like this contact them and ask to claim under - `Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act`.

I hope that I am not breaking any Forum rules by posting this link to the Money Saving Expert website where much more detail is available about this `Section 75` Consumer Credit Act protection:

Section 75 refunds: free protection over £100 - MSE

I hope that this will be helpful to any Member / Reader who has had payments taken by this or any other Company in the future who do not provide what has been paid for.

Regards,

Chris

 

[chris watkins]

I do feel for those who have lost money I really do but it has happened so many times, over so many years that with a small amount of research into what is required to become a qualified plumber & which qualifications are accepted on site it should have flagged up the dangers of going with these type of (so called) training providers. As with most things it is buyer be where & if becoming a fully qualified trade person in 'X' amount of weeks seems too good to be true (as a posed to 3-4 years) then it probably is.

I think C&G have a lot to answer for, first of all they said the only qualification for our industry was going to be the 6089 NVQ (site base evidence requirement) this was going to be the replacement for the 6129 which had been thoroughly abused by FE colleges & private training alike. Then they worked out how much income they were going to loose, all of a sudden up pops the 6035 - no NVQ required.

 

[Ric2013]

Wouldn't happen (legally) in Italy either. In Italy, a limited company has an administrator who takes personal responsibility for the company's debts. You can't just take your salary and declare the company insolvent as you can over here.

Knew a guy who ran a chair factory in Italy. When the business went bust, he and his wife got to stay in their mansion until the children were 18, but they had to pay rent to stay there, and, later, they had to move out. The mansion had been sold to pay the business' debts.

 

[MorrG]

I do feel for those who have lost money I really do but it has happened so many times, over so many years that with a small amount of research into what is required to become a qualified plumber & which qualifications are accepted on site it should have flagged up the dangers of going with these type of (so called) training providers. As with most things it is buyer be where & if becoming a fully qualified trade person in 'X' amount of weeks seems too good to be true (as a posed to 3-4 years) then it probably is.

I think C&G have a lot to answer for, first of all they said the only qualification for our industry was going to be the 6089 NVQ (site base evidence requirement) this was going to be the replacement for the 6129 which had been thoroughly abused by FE colleges & private training alike. Then they worked out how much income they were going to loose, all of a sudden up pops the 6035 - no NVQ required.

This particular company were offering people NVQ qualifications (6189 certificates) because they were actually a plumbing company as well as a training centre. They would place learners who had completed their 6035 certificate in work for two weeks so they could complete their portfolio and get the necessary parts done onsite to achieve the NVQ.

 

[chris watkins]

They would place learners who had completed their 6035 certificate in work for two weeks so they could complete their portfolio and get the necessary parts done onsite to achieve the NVQ.

And therein lies to problem TWO Weeks on site experience seriously !!
Do they think that a trade I spend 4 years learning can be done in 10 days & don't tell me how long they spent in the training centre cos that is not where you learn how to plumb.
I actual find it quite insulting that people believe that it can be like this. This world is fast becoming a place where people believe that in place of hard graft there must & should be a sort cut.
The reality is that worthwhile things have to be worked at in this life.

 

[Ric2013]

On the other hand, if you get the right experience, you don't necessarily need 4 years to learn it. During those 4 years, you probably spent a lot of your time doing the same tasks repeatedly, many of which did not require much knowledge or skill, and perhaps you learnt a new thing every day.

Not everyone can learn 10 new things a day, or gets the opportunity to, but you will appreciate there is a world of difference between a situation in which you are trying to get a job done and earn a wage, while learning as you go, and a situation in which the person you are working with is actively trying to get you to learn as much as possible.

My point being that 10 days is far too short a time, but a fast learner, in the right conditions and with the right people (a situation that a training centre could, hypothetically, bring about), could learn the trade in significantly less than 4 years. Which doesn't mean this is what is happening in practice.

 

[MorrG]

Nobody is learning the trade in two weeks, that two week course was just for the NVQ. You’d need the 6035 certificate before that which is a classroom and workshop based qualification.

In four years I assume you learnt gas or at least gained your level 3? If you spent four years doing your level 2 then something went wrong. It would take less than two (academic) years in a proper college to complete both the 6035 and the 6189.

 

[Ric2013]

I assume he learnt all the bits they don't teach you at college?

 

[chris watkins]

Nobody is learning the trade in two weeks, that two week course was just for the NVQ. You’d need the 6035 certificate before that which is a classroom and workshop based qualification.

You are trying to MorrG and for those of us who have worked in this industry for long enough to understand what a person needs to be a Plumber will tell you it can't be learnt in a classroom or a sanitised work shop, you have to be out there working along side experienced people who can help & guide you.
You think it can be but it can't, however good a learner you are, however many transferable skills you come with etc. there is no shortcut, you need time on the tools to perfect the skills.
Those skill required to work on a new build site are a lot less than to work as a domestic plumber in peoples houses & the site is more forgiving if you do get it wrong, so why is it that all the firms I know just can't get so called "Plumbers" who can do it? They won't even entertain anyone new unless they can show they have learnt alongside other plumber for a couple of years minimum.

I know you have been sold a dream but you need to understand the reality.

 

[MorrG]

I’m not trying to learn a trade in two week and I never said that it was possible to become a plumber in two weeks? I didn’t use this company in the end (thankfully)

I think it takes a minimum of two years, one year learning in a classroom and workshop followed by another year of full time work (as a plumbers mate) alongside an experienced plumber. The problem is that it’s hard to get experience without any qualifications.

If you’re working alongside a plumber full time either as an apprentice or as a plumbers mate then it should not take you four years just to acquire the NVQ level 2.

 

[Ric2013]

Even if you do a year's course in a college, it will only be two days a week. Two of my theory modules for college (rainwater and drainage) I studied from the textbook and Approved Document H at home. I then completed some college worksheets also at home and spent half an hour with a few questions with the teacher.

It saved me sitting through hours of having to sit through lessons 'learning' that gutters have to fall towards an outlet and that the final gutter bracket must be withing 150mm of the gutter end, or sitting in a room filling out worksheets that I could easily do at home. The lessons were, of course, structured for the majority of people who are not used to independent study. The City and Guilds exams were multiple choice. I got a lot out of college, but only because I harrassed the teachers with nth degree questions on the details they would otherwise have omitted. Luckily they quite enjoyed having an engaged student.

If you had a course that was full-time and took a year it would probably be very good, but City and Guilds is not anywhere near this level.

 

[MorrG]

This particular training centre was giving BPEC certificates and not C&G. From what I researched they seem to be the same (?)

I did the C&G 6035 level 2 diploma in a real college (not a training academy) and like you said, it was two days per week for one academic year.

 

[chris watkins]

Plumbing and Domestic Heating Technician
The link above shows the standards for the new qualification to replace all the others (C&G's BPEC & the like) it is due to be rolled out over the course of this year although I understand that most FE colleges will not be ready for it come September.
Interestingly it is Level 3 only, there is no Level 2 option. They have decided that to be a qualified plumber this is the level you must attain. It will last 48 months however "This may reduce if an apprentice has gained previous relevant knowledge and skills, which is recognised as Accredited Prior Learning."
Like the all the new Trailblazer Quals there will also be an independent trade skills test which must be passed at the end just like the electrical AM2 testing.
With luck this will provide a clear distinction between the training requirements to become properly qualified & those training centres offering substandard stuff which has lead to so many sad stories of people being taken for lots of money trying to better themselves.

 

[Ric2013]

Bugger. So my level 2 course was, on paper anyway, a waste of time then

 

[chris watkins]

Bugger. So my level 2 course was, on paper anyway, a waste of time then

Of course it wasn't, learning is never a waste & from what I can tell you are a good'n but how many people who have gone through 6035 college only route go on to make it, let me tell you very few, all that wasted money, time & broken dreams.

IMHO it is very wrong that when the knowledge & skills required are high that 'not fit for purpose' qualifications are allowed to be run claiming that they are what is required when the reality is of course that nothing is required to work as a plumber in this country.

 

[Ric2013]

It will be a waste if the entry level to other things is no longer NVQ2 (e.g. HETAS, level 3) because it will mean I'll have to start from scratch. Learning is never a waste, but if the qual becomes obsolete then the certificate has no value.

EDIT: That said, the 6189 seems to be all C&G is mentioning, so perhaps an element of the apprenticeship you mention will be the 6189, coupled with a renewable course, or HETAS OFTEC etc solid fuel, or the Level 3 with gas or oil?

In fact, the apprenticship page refers to a level 3 Plumbing and Domestic Heating Qualification, which could well be the current course, as even approved centres that deliver the apprenticeship you have mentioned are still showing the levels 2 and 3 6189 with level 2 being a pre-requisite of level 3. So perhaps all that is changing is that an apprenticeship can no longer be considered complete at level 2?

What I don't follow is where the level 3 course covers renewables or solid fuel, as once the Level 3 includes these, I'll be far more interested than at present.