Mr Plumber Horror Story

[MorrG]

In fairness to C&G, they make it quite clear that obtaining the 6035 certificate doesn’t make you a fully qualified plumber and any real college will tell you that as well. It’s these training academies that are trying to pass off that qualification as something that will make you a plumber after completion. The course itself was good and will help you learn the basics but further learning (onsite) will be required to become an actual plumber and they’ll tell you that themselves (C&G)

 

[Ric2013]

But, in fairness to the Plumbing Craft certificate, the only difference between the two is that the NVQ requires you to demonstrate (i.e. be tested, in effect) to show that you are able to work in, and actually are working in, site conditions in people's houses. The NVQ does not actually teach any of this any more than the diploma.

The hardest thing is finding a Work Based Recorder. I did it as self-employed and I'd done loads of maintenance jobs, but I had to travel to find someone who would let me do these tasks under his supervision so that I could have a signed-off portfolio.

Back to your link to the apprenceship standards, page 21 shows options 3 and 4 for solid fuel and solar: are you aware of any level 3 course that covers these options?

 

[chris watkins]

In fact, the apprenticship page refers to a level 3 Plumbing and Domestic Heating Qualification, which could well be the current course, as even approved centres that deliver the apprenticeship you have mentioned are still showing the levels 2 and 3 6189 with level 2 being a pre-requisite of level 3. So perhaps all that is changing is that an apprenticeship can no longer be considered complete at level 2?

The Level 3 Plumbing and Domestic Heating Qualification is now the current course but as with all these there is a transition the level 2 & 3 6189 will be ending in the next couple of years they have to allow time for those who have just started it to complete. If you are an apprentice & your company wants the government to pay for your training then this will be the only one that will attract funding.
There will be no option to jump out half way through (Level 2) an "A" level standard course.
Lord knows what the likes of Mr Plumber will be offering!

 

[chris watkins]

Back to your link to the apprenceship standards, page 21 shows options 3 and 4 for solid fuel and solar: are you aware of any level 3 course that covers these options?

The 6189 level 3 includes an option for solar thermal (which is what we do) or other carbon fuels & renewables.
If you can find a centre that does solid fuel / biomass you can study it in the last year & even get the HETAS but the problem as you know Ric is finding someone to provide you with the onsite training and assessment.
In London because of the amount of large site work there is no chance of any of the proposed option being gained so we haven't a clue what is going to happen, they just haven't thought about it.

 

[Ric2013]

That's interesting, as my college in Aberystwyth had not told me there were options for solar and solid fuel.
HETAS or OFTEC solid fuel course I could take now with my NVQ2, but I have little interest in taking a course that covers oil as I can't see myself installing an oil boiler and so would struggle with the portfolio.
Where are you that you do the solar option?

 

[MorrG]

@Ric2013 Yeah, the 6035 is where you learn what you need to know in order to gain your NVQ. The 6189 is just proof that you’ve proven you can do what you’ve learnt in the real world.

Did you have to be working alongside a qualified a plumber when the assessments were done or was it just a case of getting your work signed off for your portfolio?

Oil is used in more rural areas, I think a lot of places in Southern Ireland (outside Dublin) still use oil more than gas.

@chris watkins the 6035 certificate replaced 6129 back in 2012. As far as I know the 6129 is still recognised but no longer taught. I assume the 6035 will still be a recognised qualification as it’s still being taught.

 

[chris watkins]

eah, the 6035 is where you learn what you need to know in order to gain your NVQ. The 6189 is just proof that you’ve proven you can do what you’ve learnt in the real world.
No it isn't I am afraid, the 6035 or any college based learning is just the theory that underlies the skills you gain from work.

Did you have to be working alongside a qualified a plumber when the assessments were done or was it just a case of getting your work signed off for your portfolio?
Are you asking if he & his work place recorder cheated & didn't complete the NVQ as required?

@chris watkins the 6035 certificate replaced 6129 back in 2012. As far as I know the 6129 is still recognised but no longer taught. I assume the 6035 will still be a recognised qualification as it’s still being taught.

All passed qualifications are recognised even my Craft & Advanced from 1978 but the 6129 & 6035 are college based only, they are neither recognised nor excepted as proof that you are a qualified Plumber if you want to work on a building site nor would they give you access to the ACS gas route which is required to become Gas Safe Registered.

 

[MorrG]

@chris watkins absolutely correct, the 6035 certificate does not make you a qualified plumber (even says so itself) but you need it in order to gain your NVQ. An apprentice would be doing both courses together in order to gain the full level 2 qualification (6189)

The 6035 certificate is recognised as its part of the NVQ (the classroom and workshop part) the other part is gained onsite. I believe most apprentice plumbers usually do three days work and two days at college (could be wrong)

The 6035 certificate alone won’t get you onsite unless you’re working as a plumbers mate with a standard CSCS card (which is the idea of it)

 

[chris watkins]

The 6035 certificate alone won’t get you onsite unless you’re working as a plumbers mate with a standard CSCS card (which is the idea of it)

Quite right I should have put the "alone" into must post but I did say "qualified Plumber"
This post is going on bit now so this is my last one but I hope you can see the points & information in them.
There is no personal attack here, I know a good number who have come through the same route & are excellent plumbers but I also know there are thousands & thousands of effected lives out there because they couldn't make it some after being sold an expensive dream (just as you came close too).
On a daily bases I see the consequences of the poor knowledge & skills in the plumbing sector, this has a clear effect on our trades reputation, there is little respect of my skills by the public. Building projects both large & small have no choice than to employ persons who can't do the work, this further drives down the money we can command & wastes public & private finances.

 

[Ric2013]

@Ric2013
Did you have to be working alongside a qualified a plumber when the assessments were done or was it just a case of getting your work signed off for your portfolio?

The assessments were done in college and were part of what would be the diploma.

The installations/maintenance tasks for the NVQ were carried out on site. Some of them were directly observed (i.e. the college sent an assessor to visit while I was working as a self-employed person) while others could be witnessed by qualified or time served plumbers. The plumber had to actually be there while I was working, if that's what you mean.

In practice, this meant the ones that fell into the latter category involved a mixture of volunteering for a qualified plumber who could then sign my portfolio to confirm the work was my work and met industry standards and he'd seen me do it, and self-employed work that was witnessed by a semi-retired time-served plumber friend of mine who then signed similar paperwork. Then my college assessor looked at the evidence and decided whether it was up to standard.

The course is, really, designed for apprentices who are employed, but does not exclude other methods, although I suspect most colleges and training centres would not be as willing to find the alternative avenues detailed in the rulebook as mine was.

 

[MorrG]

@chris watkins I agree with you. I think you’re looking at it as a plumber and you see these people coming into your trade after short courses and do bad jobs and drive down prices (as well as damaging the reputation of tradesman) whereas I’m focusing more on the training companies who are selling these short courses and claiming people can be plumbers in a few weeks (for thousands of pounds)


I’ve had salesmen from these training companies lie directly to my face, one told me that the NVQ was no longer a recognised qualification and that the 6035 certificates were now the one that employers look for when hiring. I did my research and thankfully didn’t get caught out but I feel sorry for anyone that did because a lot of them were lied to by salesmen and sold something that wasn’t real.


@Ric2013 Yeah, I was wondering if the plumber had to be there whilst you worked and got assessed by somebody from the college. How long did it take you to complete your NVQ? Apprenticeships are the best way to learn obviously but they’re not really suitable for adults who have financial commitments unfortunately. The funding isn’t there either so you’ll be paying to do it whilst earning next to nothing and that’s why companies like Mr Plumber are in business.

 

[Ric2013]

@Ric2013 How long did it take you to complete your NVQ? Apprenticeships are the best way to learn obviously but they’re not really suitable for adults who have financial commitments unfortunately.

My experience was that, once I had spent the money to start the NVQ on a day a week two year course, this made it easier to get the supervised work experience. I wasn't able to get an apprenticeship, but I was doing handyman work, so I was getting some work for myself; the hardest bit is finding someone who can be there to witness at the time you are working.

The NVQ and diploma were completed in two years. To get the witnessed experience wasn't always plain sailing as there were times I had a perfect install but no one to witness or when what I was installing did not quite meet the criteria; on the reverse side, there was one lucky moment when I realised that a friend of the family of some customers, who had been present while I worked and who I had chatted to, though not currently working full-time as a plumber, had indenture certificates from the 1970s and, as such was able to be my witness.

A part of my portfolio was actually passed by my assessor in unusual circumstances because I didn't manage to get the Work-Based Recorder to sign the documentation, though he did confirm I had completed the work. Luckily, and almost at the last minute, my college assessor found some wording in the City and Guilds manual that meant he was able to allow me to pass that section on the basis od oral questioning and photographic (and other) evidence, which is not the usual route.

 

[MorrG]

@Ric2013 Thanks for sharing your experience. I have complete the 6035 diploma (levels 2 and 3) and I’m now looking to gain my NVQ but I’m having trouble finding work as a plumbers mate (with a qualified plumber) maybe I’ll look into the self employed route and find somebody to sign off my work.

I was going to use Mr Plumber to get it done but now they’ve gone under and nobody else seems to be offering what they were (a work placement)

 

[Ric2013]

I wish you all the best of luck with that. In fairness, I think the requirements for a WBR are 3 years (or 5?) full-time plumbing, or hold the NVQ2 or equivalent (as many plumbers hold the predecessors to the NVQ), so you may find a retired plumber could be used if you happen to know anyone. Worth asking around people you know.

In theory, colleges should be able to take you on for the NVQ part only and I did consider doing my NVQ in Kent where my WBR was based, but in practice I found most colleges did not seem to understand what the heck I was on about and so, given that I very much liked my own college, I decided not to bother digging too hard.

 

[MorrG]

Thanks and thanks for telling me how you got qualifed. I just want to get my NVQ sorted as I've done levels 2 and 3 of the diploma and got the water regulations cert sorted too! Do you need to get the NVQ level 2 before going for the level 3 or can you just jump straight into the level 3 (seeing as I've done the level 3 diploma)

 

[Ric2013]

Thanks and thanks for telling me how you got qualifed. I just want to get my NVQ sorted as I've done levels 2 and 3 of the diploma and got the water regulations cert sorted too! Do you need to get the NVQ level 2 before going for the level 3 or can you just jump straight into the level 3 (seeing as I've done the level 3 diploma)

I would imagine the Level 2 needs to be completed first as the requirements are quite different, not more of the same. My college told me that getting together a L2 portfolio is actually harder than a L3 one in terms of the hoop-jumping. But if I said I were certain, I would be lying.

 

[Kay101]

Interesting thread and insights into current training.

The 6035 has a disclaimer required to be signed by pupils identifying that the qualification does not lead to competence or a short cut into gas etc. this has been in place for years and I suspect it was to stop miss selling.

I think two weeks for the on site is to short, it should take longer to gain more varied experience, but having said that, when I came out of my time 30 years ago they always said that's when you start learning. We shouldn't expect newly qualified people to be fully up to speed, they are new into it

Also, a qualification shouldn't be seen as a license to practice, another debate is the control of the industry, should it require a separate license?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

i think it should be licensed and permitted esp on gas would cut alot of the rouges out,

stuff like a full/new bathroom, full/new kitchen, a new boiler being installed all need permits pulling before work carries out

then 1st fix plumbing and elecs gets inspected before boarding

then finished job gets inspected and signed off dont mind paying for the inspectors to come out as the prices wouldnt be stupid then and people would be getting a decent job done

 

[Kay101]

Gas is already licensed through GSR.
If inspections where made for each install it would be very costly.
I think licensing could be done after say 5 years in the trade, so if you are an apprentice you get your license one year after finishing, but for shorter courses of say 2 years you need another 3 after completion, then you sign off your own work

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Gas is already licensed through GSR.
If inspections where made for each install it would be very costly.
I think licensing could be done after say 5 years in the trade, so if you are an apprentice you get your license one year after finishing, but for shorter courses of say 2 years you need another 3 after completion, then you sign off your own work

gsr is a joke

the yanks managed to do it

the regs state aslong as you dont get paid for gas works they cant touch you

i agree with the licensing but with a tweak

plumbing apprenticeship for 5 years, then once you pass that you can either stay where you are or take you gas apprenticeship and that lasts for 2 years no fast passes or courses

 

[chris watkins]

So I take it no one has heard of the new Plumbing and Domestic Heating Technicians Apprenticeship Standard (TrailBlazer) ST0303/AP01 ?
This is the new qualification for the industry, if you want to claim funding (upto £21K) for your training costs then this is the one which will have to be undertaken.
It is a Level 3 only, requires Level 2 English & Maths at entry level, will last around 48 months, has
On-programme work based performance assessments as well as college based ones during the first 45 months
Then the following assessments only within the last 3 months consisting of the following :-
Multiple Choice Test
Design Project
Practical Installation Test
Practical Application Test
Professional Discussion
All of which form part of a graded end test.

It will also allow them to gain one of the following
N.Gas (ACS)
Oil (OFTEC)
Solid Fuel
Environmental Technologies
Given that they have access to the site experience.
Plumbing and Domestic Heating Technician

 

[chris watkins]

I started in 1978 & quickly came to realise we needed a registration scheme just like many other countries operate, I am convinced that I will end my days without one.
There are enough Laws in place in this country covering our work areas to protect the public health & safety, it is just that there is NO policing so they are broken & flouted on a daily basis by most.
Inspection is not the answer it would be costly but more importantly how would you know where to inspect? It can only be a real threat of prosecution, without the option of removal of a license to work.

 

[Kay101]

gsr is a joke

the yanks managed to do it

the regs state aslong as you dont get paid for gas works they cant touch you

i agree with the licensing but with a tweak

plumbing apprenticeship for 5 years, then once you pass that you can either stay where you are or take you gas apprenticeship and that lasts for 2 years no fast passes or courses

USA has numerous different models, it changes with each state but what is fairly consistent if the trade test, usually related to theory based state building laws.
Problem with using the apprenticeship as the measure is you say after it you know everything, you don't, you know enough to work, but then you need experience of working without supervision, hence my suggestion of a further year.
The regs don't say if you don't get paid they cannot touch you, they defiantly can, the regs state you must be competent, so if your not qualified, registered or not I don't see how you can prove that

The four year apprenticeship already includes gas, your suggestion of 7 years wouldn't work, you can get gas qualified by doing your ACS, nobody would bother. ACS is seen as a short cut and one of the bigger issues than a two year college course which you already sign to say doesn't lead to competence

 

[Kay101]

I started in 1978 & quickly came to realise we needed a registration scheme just like many other countries operate, I am convinced that I will end my days without one.
There are enough Laws in place in this country covering our work areas to protect the public health & safety, it is just that there is NO policing so they are broken & flouted on a daily basis by most.
Inspection is not the answer it would be costly but more importantly how would you know where to inspect? It can only be a real threat of prosecution, without the option of removal of a license to work.

I have often asked for a license scheme, your right the issue is costly and difficult to police, but it could be done. Electrical have one, not compulsory but works very well.
To get a card to practice you should prove qual she and experience, allowing the qual to test skills and card to check experience. This would stop the two week assessments on a qual, or maybe it wouldn't but they would still need x amount of years before someone can get their card, we are almost there with cscs

 

[ShaunCorbs]

USA has numerous different models, it changes with each state but what is fairly consistent if the trade test, usually related to theory based state building laws.
Problem with using the apprenticeship as the measure is you say after it you know everything, you don't, you know enough to work, but then you need experience of working without supervision, hence my suggestion of a further year.
The regs don't say if you don't get paid they cannot touch you, they defiantly can, the regs state you must be competent, so if your not qualified, registered or not I don't see how you can prove that

The four year apprenticeship already includes gas, your suggestion of 7 years wouldn't work, you can get gas qualified by doing your ACS, nobody would bother. ACS is seen as a short cut and one of the bigger issues than a two year college course which you already sign to say doesn't lead to competence

why wouldnt it work most of them dont learn any of the tech side in the collage any way