Oil Tank Below Boiler Level problem

[thediscobison]

One of these - every plumber should have one.

One of the tick boxes on the CD10 Installation Sheet is for pressure testing.


Rothenberger RP50 6.1004 Pressure Testing Pump 60 Bar - rp50 - Pressure Test Pump - PLUMBING TOOLS - Trade Counter Direct Ltd

Thanks WPHES - I found a loose joint in the temporary pipe. Guy hopefully be bringing a pressure tester for the pipe to the tank so hopefully we can get this sorted.

Do you know if there are any regulations concerning the oil pipe - does it need to be buried / insulated etc. (10mm oil pipe)

 

[thediscobison]

So I checked the pipe in the cold light of day, found 3 connections with oil round them. Pointed these out to my plumber and he tightened them, and got the boiler going from the tank yesterday evening (priming the pipe by mouth). It stayed on last night for about 3 hours with no problem.

This morning the burner didn't fire though, and wouldn't after pressing the red button 3 times.

I checked the connections again, the one right by the tank felt a little greasy (I had wiped all down last night.) However there is a non return valve between the tank and the burner. Would any lose connection cause it to not fire after 10 hours of non-operation?

 

[tamz]

Get rid of the non return valve.

 

[Gray0689]

Agree no need for it

 

[WHPES]

Should have used flared fittings not compression - less likely to get leaks.

Have a look at the tigerloop when the boiler is running. Are there any air bubbles getting into it?

Primed by mouth!! You kidding me. Is this guy for real?

 

[tamz]

A tiger loop will draw the oil no problem on 10mm with this rise and run and regardless of any small leaks that may be on the line.
The problem is either with the flow and return from the loop to the burner (kinked hoses), the pump or the bypass screw or with the filter(s).

 

[thediscobison]

Should have used flared fittings not compression - less likely to get leaks.

Have a look at the tigerloop when the boiler is running. Are there any air bubbles getting into it?

Primed by mouth!! You kidding me. Is this guy for real?

Trust me the guy is more than trying my patience.

When the boiler is running I can see small air bubbles in the tiger loop. Last night, he tightened the fitting I had my doubts on at the tank, and again got the boiler going (priming pipe again.) When the boiler was running there was quite obviously a lot of air bubbles in the tiger loop, these eventually appeared to calm down after maybe 30 mins. The boiler ran absolutely no problem until 10pm last night (when I turned it off)

This morning, the boiler fired briefly (15 secs) before cutting off. Again there was quite an obvious flow of air bubbles during the time that the boiler was fired.

This can only be air getting into the pipe right? Dodgy connection somewhere? might a compression fitting let in air without letting oil out (at last check last night all the fittings on the pipe were dry to touch)?

 

[thediscobison]

Get rid of the non return valve.

What makes you say this? Might the non return valve be causing an issue?

 

[thediscobison]

A tiger loop will draw the oil no problem on 10mm with this rise and run and regardless of any small leaks that may be on the line.
The problem is either with the flow and return from the loop to the burner (kinked hoses), the pump or the bypass screw or with the filter(s).

Interesting.

I've drawn a rather crude diagram and taken a photo of it (since i'm in work) When I read the tiger loop installation instructions I got from the internet, I noticed they show a curved inlet pipe to the tiger loop. Might the right angle fitting cause an issue? (marked as 90 degree corner fitting.)

Note the oil inlet pipe is copper, the two pipes to the burner are the flexible type. Hope the diagram is clear (can upload an actual photo later) The flexible pipes are not kinked.

What might be wrong with the filters (currently to my knowledge there isn't one on the oil pipe between tank and tiger loop)? Should there be? And would it help?

Could the pump be on it's way out / not capable of drawing the oil? Bear in mind the pump came with the burner which I replaced maybe 3 years ago.

What's the bypass screw? Inside the burner? What could be the problem with it?

 

[Gray0689]

No need for a non return valve won't be helping draw
Take it off and try again if still not working right I'd have to say pump not working to well

 

[ecowarm]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

 

[Gray0689]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

Seen it done before 3metre high and 50metre long with 10mm no problem at all

 

[thediscobison]

For suction lift of 3m and a run of 25m it needs a 6mm internal bore pipe i.e. 8mm copper pipe.

The lift is somewhere between 2.5m and 3m at a second look, and the run could be 22m. How can you be sure that 8mm would do the job? A lot of others are saying 10mm is fine.

Correct me if i'm wrong but when the burner/pump is on and running well, the oil in the pipe would be right at the level of the tiger loop right? So why when the heat goes off overnight why would the oil run partially back down the pipe - surely pressure should keep it at the top? Or does the pump expect to find air first?

 

[thediscobison]

No need for a non return valve won't be helping draw
Take it off and try again if still not working right I'd have to say pump not working to well

Thanks Gray - that gives me something else to suggest to him. He's clearly running out of ideas here - rechecked the connections to the tiger loop / burner tonight. One suggestion to try replacing the flexible pipes (though they were new.)

The non return valve is much further down the pipe - it is maybe 2m from the oil tank. Would this still be affecting the draw?

 

[ecowarm]

If everything is right, the oil stays at the burner ready to fire next time, in an hour or 2 weeks. If the oil is running back there is air getting in. Somewhere on the flexi pipe connectors between the tigerloop and burner on either pipe there is a leak. Stop the leak and it will work providing the oil is manually drawn to the burner. If the smaller pipe is installed the burner pump will be able to drraw the oil on its own. As said remove non return valve.

 

[thediscobison]

See the acual photo above, I'm hoping someone can see if there might be anything obvious wrong (unlikely I guess)

 

[thediscobison]

If everything is right, the oil stays at the burner ready to fire next time, in an hour or 2 weeks. If the oil is running back there is air getting in. Somewhere on the flexi pipe connectors between the tigerloop and burner on either pipe there is a leak. Stop the leak and it will work providing the oil is manually drawn to the burner. If the smaller pipe is installed the burner pump will be able to drraw the oil on its own. As said remove non return valve.

Surely removing the leak on the flexi pipe connectors will stop the air getting in so stop the oil running down therefore there would be no need to manually draw the oil to the pump?

 

[ecowarm]

!/. tigerloop on the inside
2/. what a mess
3/. no need to take the tigerloop as high as that

 

[ecowarm]

Surely removing the leak on the flexi pipe connectors will stop the air getting in so stop the oil running down therefore there would be no need to manually draw the oil to the pump?

Yes but the oil pump will have to work a lot harder than its designed to do

 

[dontknowitall]

Shouldn't really add to his woes (unless he's not OFTEC registered) but I can't see a fire valve fitted either.

Don't think it's within regulations to fit a tiger loop inside a boiler, let alone inside the house (ones I've seen are outside the building), but I don't know the regulations of this without looking them up.

Surely the tiger loop came with instructions? All you have to do is follow them.

Hope you get the issue sorted before too long.

 

[thediscobison]

Shouldn't really add to his woes (unless he's not OFTEC registered) but I can't see a fire valve fitted either.

Don't think it's within regulations to fit a tiger loop inside a boiler, let alone inside the house (ones I've seen are outside the building), but I don't know the regulations of this without looking them up.

Surely the tiger loop came with instructions? All you have to do is follow them.

Hope you get the issue sorted before too long.

It's not really indoors - it's in an outside boilerhouse. As far as I am aware when I read the instructions after he put it in it is fine to put inside. He is aware of the fire valve (would this also be known as a fusible valve?) but he wants to get it working before introducing anything else.

 

[thediscobison]

I've attached a photo of the Tiger loop when I turned the boiler on this morning. Again it fired for maybe 15s before cutting out. Notice the flow of air bubbles - I think this is not normal? Does this prove the air might be getting in through one of the flexible hoses?

Plan is to change those out tonight - but I'm wondering if there is anything else that could be wrong that might cause this (unless this is expected)

 

[kimbo]

Just got back from holiday and seen thread. If I were you I would get an OFTEC bloke out and get the job done properly. The tigerloop should not be in any building the reason is it vents the fumes from the top of the tigerloop, so you could get the boilerhouse filled with fumes and could cause an explosion (unlikely but possible). Theer is a similar thing called a GOK which is designed to fit into a building and a bit more sophisticated. If you dont know who to believe on what you require or whether your setup will work ring anglo nordic who are the agents for tigerloop and also the GOK device.
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[dontknowitall]

... He is aware of the fire valve (would this also be known as a fusible valve?) but he wants to get it working before introducing anything else ...

I would never do that for the simple reason that if something did go wrong and a fire started, I doubt my insurance company would be happy to pay out due to my negligence - quite apart from the risk of injury or fatality. If something did occur I could never be at peace with myself.

While I appreciate the risk is small, it does have serious consequencies. Similar to not wearing a seatbelt where you're unlikely to have an accident but if you do ...

If he is OFTEC qualified he's not very responsible and if he isn't this is a primary reason why you're having problems.

 

[Gray0689]

The tiger loop is fine inside boiler house but the fire valve should be outside non