Over 3 mins to get hot water in kitchen - is this normal?

[LCV]

Hi,

My family have just moved back in from a house renovation just before the Easter bank holiday. When I turned on the tap in the kitchen to wash up and it takes over 3 mins before the water was hot enough to wash up. I had a large kitchen sink put in and I managed to fill that up with cold water which I had to then drain away to replace it with the hot water. It would have been faster (and used less water) if I had boiled the kettle for the hot water. I now wash my hands with cold water after I have used the toilet because it takes so long and as a family so much water is wasted while we wait for it to be hot enough to bathe and shower.

I feel concerned. Is this normal? Before the renovation I did not have to wait long to get hot water to all my taps.

We had a Vaillant system boiler with a 250L indirect hot water cylinder put in. The previous combi boiler was moved from the kitchen to the Utility room. The kitchen is at the front of the house while the Utility room is at the back of the house on the same floor. The previous house was over 3 floors with 2 bathrooms and a loft conversion has taken it to 4 floors and 3 bathrooms. We were told that we would have to wait up to a minute to get hot water in the loft which we said we were fine with but it is actually a lot longer than that and we certainly did not expect the rest of the house to be affected in this way.

I will go back to the plumber to discuss but wanted to get your views and advice first. I am really hoping the problem is to do with a setting on the boiler.

Thanks!

 

[Howsie]

Please do. He's a lovely fella and will give you an honest and frank opinion of what the problem is, who's to blame and how to get it fixed to your satisfaction.

 

[REDSAW]

long thread, i now looking into retirement pensions!

 

[Howsie]

How did you get on with him?

 

[Howsie]

I'd like to draw your attention to this thread which you started in July last year: http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/c...79-hot-water-circulating-ring.html#post791776

It's very disingenuous of you moan about the performance of your hot water system when your plumber advised you to have one AND you asked for our advice on here. We have endeavored to help you on a variety of subjects and you've received a lot of valuable AND FREE advice. I doubt very much that you'll see much more of that on here; well not from me anyway!

 

[chris watkins]

I feel dirty, abused & used.

Post 2 in the July thread gave you all the info required, you choose to ignore this (free) advice.

Go live with the consequences I say.

The cheek of some people to come back & ask what they can do about it now.
And then to try to blame it on the Plumber / Builder to boot.

Better give your mate the heads up Howsie they will probably try to knock him.

 

[Howsie]

I've already warned him off and made sure that he passes the word around...

 

[LCV]

Okay, before you all get cross my posting in July doesn't tell you the complete story but I can understand why you would feel angry.

Back in July I received an e-mail from the builder which asked if I wanted a hot water circulating ring. He said in the e-mail "this is not necessary required as is only for comfort". If I chose not to have the ring then "hot water will start running in about 20-40 seconds" but if I chose to have the ring then "hot water would appear in a few seconds". This was in relation to the shower in the loft en-suite and the time it would take to get hot water. There was no discussion that the rest of taps in my house would be affected.

The price quoted was quite expensive to us which is why I posted on the forum in July to find out whether to do it or not.
Unfortunately, there were a number of unforeseen events that occurred which caused us to go over budget, for example my husband smashed the bedroom window by accident so we had to replace them. We discovered there was no insulation between the floor boards so had to add the cost of that in. When we took up the carpet in the bedroom we found that an old leak we had in the toilet had spread into the bedroom so had to replace the floor boards and so on.

As such we had to seriously look at areas where we could makes cuts and one of them was the circulating ring. We just thought, okay we will just wait 20-40seconds for the hot water it is not that long.

 

[Howsie]

I hope that you and your builder come to a mutually satisfactory conclusion.

 

[LCV]

We based this decision on the information that he presented to us. Obviously if he said that I would have to wait 3+ minutes in the kitchen and all my taps would be affected I would consider this an necessity rather than a luxury item for comfort.

I spoke with Mak, really nice guy so thank Howsie for his details, he said that if it had been him he would have put it a secondary return into the design for a 3+storey house automatically and not even asked the client if they wanted it.

When I texted Mak I actually asked if he thought I was to blame as this is something that has been on my mind a lot. He replied back and said it was their fault because of the information that was presented to me.

I am very grateful for all your help and advice that has been given here. Of course I really, really regret not going ahead with the ring. My house is just finished, I have a baby and a young child, so the idea of the house been smashed up again makes me feel completely ill.

 

[LCV]

I hope you all feel less angry now.

 

[SimonG]

:leaving:

 

[LCV]

This posting started off with the question whether 3+minutes was normal to get hot water in the kitchen. I thought it could be to do with a setting on the boiler. I did not even connect it to the circulating ring because that, in my mind, was in relation to getting hot water in the loft so why would my kitchen be affected.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

This posting started off with the question whether 3+minutes was normal to get hot water in the kitchen. I thought it could be to do with a setting on the boiler. I did not even connect it to the circulating ring because that, in my mind, was in relation to getting hot water in the loft so why would my kitchen be affected.

the longer the run the more cold water you have to draw off before fresh hot water from the cylinder is used, the pipe might not be lagged/ insulated

with a secondary return the cold water in the pipe is sent back to the cylinder and fresh hot water is put in its place

in simple terms

 

[LCV]

Thanks for explaining Shaun.

What I can't get my head round is why it takes such a long time to get hot water in the kitchen. I know the boiler has been moved from the kitchen to the Utility room but when the boiler was in the kitchen I didn't have to wait over 3 minutes to get hot water in the Utility room. The wait was more like 40seconds. My husband thinks the hot water must go to the loft first before coming back down to the kitchen in order to take that long rather than straight from the Utility room to the kitchen...

Hopefully it will all be resolved and this will be a story I will tell to my children when they are older about the dramas involved with renovation projects.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thanks for explaining Shaun.

What I can't get my head round is why it takes such a long time to get hot water in the kitchen. I know the boiler has been moved from the kitchen to the Utility room but when the boiler was in the kitchen I didn't have to wait over 3 minutes to get hot water in the Utility room. The wait was more like 40seconds. My husband thinks the hot water must go to the loft first before coming back down to the kitchen in order to take that long rather than straight from the Utility room to the kitchen...

Hopefully it will all be resolved and this will be a story I will tell to my children when they are older about the dramas involved with renovation projects.

from the boiler to the kitchen distance wise? and very unlikely it will go upstairs first and then back down to the kitchen

 

[LCV]

It is around 8 meters away, is that big? The kitchen and living room is open plan so one room. The Utility room is next to the living room, so across the living room to get to the kitchen sink.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It is around 8 meters away, is that big? The kitchen and living room is open plan so one room. The Utility room is next to the living room, so across the living room to get to the kitchen sink.

depending on run you could have 10-12m maybe 15m if theres things in the way of pipework esp if its un- insulated yes

at a rough guess 0.2L per m of 15mm or 0.35L for 22mm

worst case 22mm estimated at 15m 5.25L

 

[LCV]

Sorry this doesn't mean anything to me. How does this translate timewise? Are you saying 3+mins is normal then because of the distance? If so, why didn't I have an issue with the time to hot water in the Utility room when the boiler was in the kitchen?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Sorry this doesn't mean anything to me. How does this translate timewise? Are you saying 3+mins is normal then because of the distance? If so, why didn't I have an issue with the time to hot water in the Utility room when the boiler was in the kitchen?

depends on factors length and run of pipework is it insulated etc, but building reg/water regs state you must have hot water within 30 seconds

"government guidance recommends that when opening a hot water tap, or other outlet, the water should reach 50°C within 30 seconds." to stop wastage of water

 

[LCV]

Do you know which section of building regs your quote came from so that I can refer to it. It does say it is only a recommendation though.

I had instructed private building control for my renovation project but the surveyor for some reason is not replying to my e-mails about this issue as I had asked him first whether 3+mins was normal before posting here.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Do you know which section of building regs your quote came from so that I can refer to it. It does say it is only a recommendation though.

I had instructed private building control for my renovation project but the surveyor for some reason is not replying to my e-mails about this issue as I had asked him first whether 3+mins was normal before posting here.

3.7 g3

"Pipework should be designed and installed in such a way as to minimise the transfer time between the hot water storage system and hot water outlets."

also

4.4.1

"In small systems, with normal tap running times and a maximum delay of 30 seconds for the hot water to reach the outlet, the pipes would be subjected to sufficient temperature to kill Legionella (or inhibit growth) without the need of secondary circulation."

but something is wrong

 

[LCV]

Thank you Shaun. I presume my house despite being on 4 floors is still classified as a small system.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Thank you Shaun. I presume my house despite being on 4 floors is still classified as a small system.

yes was from my commercial book

could you measure how much water is drawn off before it becomes hot please?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

if my math is right a bristan kitchen/ any tap has a flow rate of about 10-15 lpm (estimated)

so take it at 10 and you dont have hot water for about 3 mins

thats 30L does that sound about right (ballpark)

 

[LCV]

I can fill my kitchen sink to the top before it gets hot. Would the measurement of my sink be sufficient?