Plumber has caused leaks throughout the house

[Reading1986]

Hello

I thought I'd post a post.

I am currently under going a full re dec of the whole house, new flooring, skirting, architrave window boards and nice new rads.

Plumber came to fit the new rads, drained down the system. To begin the work the next day.

I had a call from the kitchen floor tilers to say there was a leak coming into the lounge ceiling / window reveal. Ruined the reveal. Needs plastering or maybe replacing

I called the plumber and he came back round to check straight away. I wasn't in at time and made my way back home straight away. Water had come in from the above bedrooms and into the lounge reveal. I got home and checked the living room out. And around the whole house. Checked everywhere. Plumber had left by the time I got there.

The next day the kitchen tilers rang again to say there is water coming coming through the kitchen ceiling ( alot of it) all over the kitchen floor. Wrecked the new kitchen plinths. Potentially the kitchen floor grout. All the other rooms have had ply laid down ready for amitco flooring. The ply had had a fair amount of water over it. Ensuite flooded. Landing carpet completely soaked around the rad area. So I've had to open an insurance claim.

The plumber is saying that both valves. The heating filling loop were letting water by. So even thou he had drained the system it was letting water by and filling the system up.

Question should he have discovered that the "valves" for the heating filling loop were at "fault" when draining the system. Or is this completely avoidable.

Now left with a huge amount of unnecessary damage. Plumber is demanding a days wage when was only there from 9 to 2pm. He's replaced the 2 valves on the filling loop as he said they were at fault. Also bearing in mind I had a rad capped off month before and some work a month before that. So the system has been drained down twice fully successfully without any issues.....oh this was done by a different plumber. Who I would normally use. But was unfortunately to busy with his schedule to fit me on for this rad work.

So has the plumber been incompetent and not checking the system correctly and making sure it's draining down correctly, also should he have had detected these issues when draining down the system, therefore avoiding all of these issues I now have / or should he have detected the issues on his second visit when I called to say i had a leak in the lounge from the rad pipes above.


Should I pay or not.....would really like some advice. Never had this much damage done or any after a trades man has been in.

 

[Reading1986]

No else touched the heating system apart from him. Yes I had the kitchen tillers in but they left at 4pm and the plumber came back just after they had left ( second visit) for the first reported leak. not saying not his fault but could tilers have tried to fill it as they wanted a bit of heat.

No not a all as I have nest and all the heating electrics we're off. But surely he should have capped trv ends and capped the filling loop. When he came back at 4pm and he was the only one on the house surely then he should of realized the issues. And then definitely capped off to ensure no further leaking?

 

[SJB060685]

He didn’t close the bleed valves didn’t disconnect the filling loop and left open ends that’s 3 mistakes. You should be asking for he’s insurance details

I'm willing to bet if hes that careless on the job he probably doesn't have insurance

 

[SimonG]

Like I said only playing devils advocate. Hope you get it sorted.

 

[Darren Jackson]

Agreed there are always 2 sides to a story!
But at the end of the day, the op hired a professional. Who's job is to anticipate the possible interference from a third party, be it another trade person, a tenant, a minor or home owner that does not realise or know not to top up the pressure. A true professional would have made a quick risk assessment and eliminated the possibility of this happening with just a few good practice measures which lets face it, should always be carried out regardless of the property being occupied or not just to protect the property, decoration & contents. In my mind the plumber is guilty of negligence and needs to be brought to justice. Not try to blame a faulty filling loop and try to make more money out of it. Because even if the valves were faulty (which I don't believe) but given the benefit of the doubt, he still should have followed simple procedure and the flooding would not have happened faulty valves or not.

 

[Reading1986]

Agreed there are always 2 sides to a story!
But at the end of the day, the op hired a professional. Who's job is to anticipate the possible interference from a third party, be it another trade person, a tenant, a minor or home owner that does not realise or know not to top up the pressure. A true professional would have made a quick risk assessment and eliminated the possibility of this happening with just a few good practice measures which lets face it, should always be carried out regardless of the property being occupied or not just to protect the property, decoration & contents. In my mind the plumber is guilty of negligence and needs to be brought to justice. Not try to blame a faulty filling loop and try to make more money out of it. Because even if the valves were faulty (which I don't believe) but given the benefit of the doubt, he still should have followed simple procedure and the flooding would not have happened faulty valves or not.

Couldn't agree any more. I still have water dripping out of trvs. When he came back the next day which I think I said he did. He capped off both ends of the filling loop. But obviously the damage was already caused. So he did the right thing at the wrong time. Unfortunately Im now left with lots of damage, a big insurance claim. Dripping trvs and a plumber demanding £250 for a days wage. Also to add insult he only done 4 hours. £250 for 4 hours. That's from the time he pulled up to the time he pulled off the drive way. Insurance company sent out a company to start the drying process. I've got these great big dryer's in the house....there pretty cool. So far the insurance process has been relatively straightforward. The only thing they have said which I worried about is that the lose adjuster may consider the damage to each rooms as individual insurance claims. I.e 5 rooms damaged = 5 X £380 insurance excess.

 

[king of pipes]

Always two sides to a story but open ends needed capping if this had been done the passing filling loop would not have caused the problem and as the others have stated in a ideal world it also should be disconnected and capped, I feel for you here it doesn't take much to ruin your home surfaces and decor but I doubt he will admit liability seems a bit unprofessional but plenty of them out there we all get leaks from time to time it's a hazard of the job but you need to bend over backwards to rectify the issue and treat the customer and their property with respect hope it all gets resolved Regards Kop.

 

[Scott_D]

Why don’t ask your insurance provider what they recommend about paying the plumber and getting his insurance details etc?

 

[Reading1986]

Why don’t ask your insurance provider what they recommend about paying the plumber and getting his insurance details etc?

I was planning to do that. He's called and messaged for the money. I'm already £380 down on the insurance excess. And of the insurance company deem the damage to each room separate then it will be £380 per room.

 

[Darren Jackson]

Issue him with an invoice for the damage he has caused minus his fee.put it in writing that you will gladly pay his fee once he has rectified the damage he had caused. I would not give him a penny until you have your property back the same as it was before he started.

 

[Reading1986]

Issue him with an invoice for the damage he has caused minus his fee.put it in writing that you will gladly pay his fee once he has rectified the damage he had caused. I would not give him a penny until you have your property back the same as it was before he started.

I would gladly pay his fee if he puts the damage right. Or contacts his insurance. I'm getting zero help from him. All he is saying that the filling loop caused the problem and all the damage to my house is not his problem. You cant reason with people like that at all

 

[Phil]

I would want to have a good look at the filling loop and lets see if it is really passing, I bet he says hes thrown it away.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

My advice is that this will get worse before if gets better (financially).
I would not advise paying the plumber at all.
I would give all the plumbers details to your insurance company and let them pursue the claim against him, it takes time.
I would get confirmation from the insurance company in writing that they are going to pursue the plumber for all costs including your excess(es)
If the plumber pursues payment, you may refer them to your insurance company who are handling the case.
You are quite within your rights to be made whole at no cost to yourself.
The plumber should pay for all damage and clean up.

Reasons are: Water damage caused by opening up the heating system:
1. Water not isolated either at the filling loop or mains incoming.
2. Bleed valves left open
3. TRV's used as stop ends (totally un-acceptable)
4. Drain valves assumed shut off, rather than left open with pipe to drain.

It is true that maybe in our own home we may take short cuts like leaving TRVs open, relying on filling loop, but i have only ever done this on-site when i am the only one there and i would not leave like that, also i always leave the drain lines open until i am finished with any modifications (this is mainly due to deal with any shifting water.

Hope it all works out

 

[Reading1986]

I would want to have a good look at the filling loop and lets see if it is really passing, I bet he says hes thrown it away.

Phil you are correct, I've asked for the old filling loop and he said he has thrown it away. When I asked, it was literally a few hours are he removed and replaced the filling loop. I said I needed it as the insurance company has asked for it. Which they have
[automerge]1578753091[/automerge]

My advice is that this will get worse before if gets better (financially).
I would not advise paying the plumber at all.
I would give all the plumbers details to your insurance company and let them pursue the claim against him, it takes time.
I would get confirmation from the insurance company in writing that they are going to pursue the plumber for all costs including your excess(es)
If the plumber pursues payment, you may refer them to your insurance company who are handling the case.
You are quite within your rights to be made whole at no cost to yourself.
The plumber should pay for all damage and clean up.

Reasons are: Water damage caused by opening up the heating system:
1. Water not isolated either at the filling loop or mains incoming.
2. Bleed valves left open
3. TRV's used as stop ends (totally un-acceptable)
4. Drain valves assumed shut off, rather than left open with pipe to drain.

It is true that maybe in our own home we may take short cuts like leaving TRVs open, relying on filling loop, but i have only ever done this on-site when i am the only one there and i would not leave like that, also i always leave the drain lines open until i am finished with any modifications (this is mainly due to deal with any shifting water.

Hope it all works out

Thank you bacon_sandwich all of your information was extremely helpful. I'm no plumber, but when he came back because of the flooding and he started blaming the filling loop that when I question him about how he turned the filling loop off. All he said was I put my head in the airing cupboard saw that the filling hose was attached but turned off. "So I just left it like that" I said shouldn't you have capped off etc to ensure the system wasn't letting by and filling up. He said no. Completely understand if your "drain pipe" going outside is attached all day and your completing the works in 1 day and your present at the property. He left the house at around 2pm ish. Left bleed valve's open, trvs closed but not open. Actually I found one or 2 that were open a little. And obviously left the filling loop attached and didn't remove it and cap. Heating wasn't required over night and it was his choice to leave at 2 and come back the next day. Had made the system safe by capping etc or completing the works in one day etc. We wouldn't be in this situation. Regarding insurance etc I do intend to pass his details over to the insurance company as they have already requested this information

 

[centralheatking]

Phil you are correct, I've asked for the old filling loop and he said he has thrown it away. When I asked, it was literally a few hours are he removed and replaced the filling loop. I said I needed it as the insurance company has asked for it. Which they have
[automerge]1578753091[/automerge]

Thank you bacon_sandwich all of your information was extremely helpful. I'm no plumber, but when he came back because of the flooding and he started blaming the filling loop that when I question him about how he turned the filling loop off. All he said was I put my head in the airing cupboard saw that the filling hose was attached but turned off. "So I just left it like that" I said shouldn't you have capped off etc to ensure the system wasn't letting by and filling up. He said no. Completely understand if your "drain pipe" going outside is attached all day and your completing the works in 1 day and your present at the property. He left the house at around 2pm ish. Left bleed valve's open, trvs closed but not open. Actually I found one or 2 that were open a little. And obviously left the filling loop attached and didn't remove it and cap. Heating wasn't required over night and it was his choice to leave at 2 and come back the next day. Had made the system safe by capping etc or completing the works in one day etc. We wouldn't be in this situation. Regarding insurance etc I do intend to pass his details over to the insurance company as they have already requested this information

I have read all this post carefully and watched it unfold. I have been in this industry since 1981 and have employed many engineers and been responsible for 4/6 thousand systems of all sorts. Maybe more
My View.
1. Do not pay the contractor at all , inform him directly with your reasons. Ask him to reply.
2. Write a detailed diary inc. dates and times of this whole sorry episode
3. Put it into the hands of professionals ...esp. your insurance co.
4. Engage a good heating engineering outfit to a. check your system over
b. produce a report/survey
I think if this sits right with you expect nothing from this Trumpton plumber and ask nothing from him
litigation leaves everybody ...even the innocent with dirty hands...my Mrs is a (nice) barrister and always suggests this way if possible. However if this 'plumber' has assets for you to claim on go in high
and get a really aggressive legal usually with a scruffy high st office to open upon him. centralheatking

 

[Reading1986]

I have read all this post carefully and watched it unfold. I have been in this industry since 1981 and have employed many engineers and been responsible for 4/6 thousand systems of all sorts. Maybe more
My View.
1. Do not pay the contractor at all , inform him directly with your reasons. Ask him to reply.
2. Write a detailed diary inc. dates and times of this whole sorry episode
3. Put it into the hands of professionals ...esp. your insurance co.
4. Engage a good heating engineering outfit to a. check your system over
b. produce a report/survey
I think if this sits right with you expect nothing from this Trumpton plumber and ask nothing from him
litigation leaves everybody ...even the innocent with dirty hands...my Mrs is a (nice) barrister and always suggests this way if possible. However if this 'plumber' has assets for you to claim on go in high
and get a really aggressive legal usually with a scruffy high st office to open upon him. centralheatking

Hello centralheatking
Thank you for help and information. I have already instructed my insurance company. They have asked for all his information and they have already said that they would open a case up with him / his insurance company to get money back that the insurance claim costs

 

[Reading1986]

So my insurance have approved my claim which is one less headache which is good. Plumber has sent an invoice over, he's push the price up from £250 to £270 on the invoice. I told the plumber that I am passing the invoice over to my insurance company. I believe once the insurance claim has been sorted, they will try to recover the claim through his insurance company. Check a trade shows he has 2 million liability insurance. Invoice wise I'm still struggling to know what to do....do I pay? If my insurance recover the loses through his insurance company I will get my £380 excess back. I feel if I get my excess back then i definitely should pay his bill. But only once I get my excess back. Dose this sound unreasonable? At the moment I'm left with damage to my home, £380 excess. So I can't justify paying his invoice at the moment.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I wouldn’t not until it’s all sorted and you get your money back from his insurance then you pay

 

[Reading1986]

I wouldn’t not until it’s all sorted and you get your money back from his insurance then you pay

That's what I was thinking, once everything is resolved house wise and I have my insurance excess back then of course I'd pay the invoice. Should he be pushing the invoice up? Seems strange

 

[centralheatking]

That's what I was thinking, once everything is resolved house wise and I have my insurance excess back then of course I'd pay the invoice. Should he be pushing the invoice up? Seems strange

You are correct, let him know that his invoice will be settled after the insurance has been straightened out. If you pay him it might look like you are satisfied with his work. Refer him to your insurance company ...centralheatking

 

[Reading1986]

You are correct, let him know that his invoice will be settled after the insurance has been straightened out. If you pay him it might look like you are satisfied with his work. Refer him to your insurance company ...centralheatking

That's also what I thought, if I pay I'm almost saying thank you for your good work oh and the leak, here's your invoice paid in full. But I agree paying shows that I'm satisfied with the works

 

[Scott_D]

Have your insurance company requested his details?

 

[Reading1986]

Have your insurance company requested his details?

Yes they asked for the invoice he sent over. Which I forwarded over to them. Is that the correct thing to do?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes they asked for the invoice he sent over. Which I forwarded over to them. Is that the correct thing to do?

Yep

If he calls again tell him it’s in the hands of the insurance and there In contact With his

 

[Reading1986]

Yep

If he calls again tell him it’s in the hands of the insurance and there In contact With his

Thank you, I feel like a little grass. But as a business owner (him) he can't behave in this manner. You cant flood someone's house and cause leaks....then ask for payment as if all is fine. I can't believe the front he has. I'd be so embarrassed if I did this. Especially only being established on companies house for 3 months.

 

[bacon_sandwich]

Well he is maintaining it was not his fault, so of course he would be expecting payment for all his good works. However you hold him responsible for flooding the house which, it is reasonable , not to pay for such a poor service. There in lies the dispute. The only issue i can see is if your insurance company decide not to pursue his insurance company for the loss, however you can still deal with this outside of the insurance process. Do not pay, is my advice, its not a good sign