Plumber has caused leaks throughout the house

[Reading1986]

Hello

I thought I'd post a post.

I am currently under going a full re dec of the whole house, new flooring, skirting, architrave window boards and nice new rads.

Plumber came to fit the new rads, drained down the system. To begin the work the next day.

I had a call from the kitchen floor tilers to say there was a leak coming into the lounge ceiling / window reveal. Ruined the reveal. Needs plastering or maybe replacing

I called the plumber and he came back round to check straight away. I wasn't in at time and made my way back home straight away. Water had come in from the above bedrooms and into the lounge reveal. I got home and checked the living room out. And around the whole house. Checked everywhere. Plumber had left by the time I got there.

The next day the kitchen tilers rang again to say there is water coming coming through the kitchen ceiling ( alot of it) all over the kitchen floor. Wrecked the new kitchen plinths. Potentially the kitchen floor grout. All the other rooms have had ply laid down ready for amitco flooring. The ply had had a fair amount of water over it. Ensuite flooded. Landing carpet completely soaked around the rad area. So I've had to open an insurance claim.

The plumber is saying that both valves. The heating filling loop were letting water by. So even thou he had drained the system it was letting water by and filling the system up.

Question should he have discovered that the "valves" for the heating filling loop were at "fault" when draining the system. Or is this completely avoidable.

Now left with a huge amount of unnecessary damage. Plumber is demanding a days wage when was only there from 9 to 2pm. He's replaced the 2 valves on the filling loop as he said they were at fault. Also bearing in mind I had a rad capped off month before and some work a month before that. So the system has been drained down twice fully successfully without any issues.....oh this was done by a different plumber. Who I would normally use. But was unfortunately to busy with his schedule to fit me on for this rad work.

So has the plumber been incompetent and not checking the system correctly and making sure it's draining down correctly, also should he have had detected these issues when draining down the system, therefore avoiding all of these issues I now have / or should he have detected the issues on his second visit when I called to say i had a leak in the lounge from the rad pipes above.


Should I pay or not.....would really like some advice. Never had this much damage done or any after a trades man has been in.

 

[centralheatking]

Thank you, I feel like a little grass. But as a business owner (him) he can't behave in this manner. You cant flood someone's house and cause leaks....then ask for payment as if all is fine. I can't believe the front he has. I'd be so embarrassed if I did this. Especially only being established on companies house for 3 months.

Ok Reading1986 now is the time to sit back ...you have done all that is required..things are in hand with experts..leave them to it. As above my wife is a barrister of many years experience you must now leave it ...you have been wronged but never let it take over..she knows these things. chking

 

[Reading1986]

Ok Reading1986 now is the time to sit back ...you have done all that is required..things are in hand with experts..leave them to it. As above my wife is a barrister of many years experience you must now leave it ...you have been wronged but never let it take over..she knows these things. chking

So I'm insurance company called him and all is currently going through. I do believe my insurance company will try to recover the costs once the insurance claim has gone through. He messaged me today to ask for payment again. He told me that my insurance company told me to pay him. Called the insurance company to check this out it's completely untrue. All they was to ascertain whether is was the person that worked on the system that shortly then leaked. So I called the plumber and said very politely that this is untrue and the lose adjuster was simply gathering information regarding the claim. He then said when are you paying me. I said at the moment until the claim is fully resolved and I have got my £380 back. Then I will pay your invoice in full. I also ask if this invoice was for one days labour which I said it was. Then I politely said but you only did 4 hours. He then said ok give me £180 cash today. This guy is literally unbelievable. So by the fact he went out from £270 to £180 he knows he's done wrong and accepted that he only did 4 hours. All I did was mentioned is real working time on my house and he dropped it straight away. He then said can I have the £180 today I said once the insurance has fully paid and I have recovered by loses i.e excess. Really don't no what do here. Do I inform my insurance company about him directly as up to now only the lose adjuster who is a separate company is aware of who he and his company are?

 

[centralheatking]

yes tell your insurance company directly, tell them he is putting you under undue pressure. A call to trading standards would no go amiss on identical lines. He comes over as a chancer with no feeling of guilt. Do not pay him tell him not to contact you again. If he persists bullying you have a word with your local police. Centralheatking

 

[Best]

Only contact the plumber in written form where possible and take care in what you write. Basically you want the plumber to state all the bull and show his hand.
Emails and even text messages are also verification of communications (if they get responses), so do keep them.
Pay the plumber nothing and say in any correspondence to him that your insurance has advised you they are dealing with the plumber together hopefully with his insurance about your claim for damages to your property.

 

[oz-plumber]

I get the feeling you are being 'ridden' by the insurance company - 5 claims and 5 excesses - on 1 property and one heating system.
No Judge would accept that in Court - You would need an individual insurance policy on every room of your house for that to take effect.

The Plumber: - all correspondence to be via email from now on.
Get him to email you a detailed 'scope of works' on the invoice.

If it is a Regulation that the filling loop is to be disconnected from the heating system then question him after the detailed invoice has been sent through.

If the detailed invoice doesn't satisfy you, keep questioning him until there is something that he admits to that doesn't comply with the Regulations and you will have him.
Try to get him to accept you original offer of 50% and put it against the Insurance Claim - due to being under duress.

 

[Reading1986]

I get the feeling you are being 'ridden' by the insurance company - 5 claims and 5 excesses - on 1 property and one heating system.
No Judge would accept that in Court - You would need an individual insurance policy on every room of your house for that to take effect.

The Plumber: - all correspondence to be via email from now on.
Get him to email you a detailed 'scope of works' on the invoice.

If it is a Regulation that the filling loop is to be disconnected from the heating system then question him after the detailed invoice has been sent through.

If the detailed invoice doesn't satisfy you, keep questioning him until there is something that he admits to that doesn't comply with the Regulations and you will have him.
Try to get him to accept you original offer of 50% and put it against the Insurance Claim - due to being under duress.

Regarding the multiple insurance claims, it's been put down as only 1 claim which is the correct thing. They should never have suggested that it would be multiple claims until they had all the facts. After they reviewed the claim they have confirmed one claim.

He's been pestering for his money and has put be under a lot of pressure to settle. I called him and said you only did 4 hours. I only asked what dose he call a "days labour" he replied 8 hours. Because of the amount of pressure from him I have unfortunately paid £180. 180 isn't half 250 or 270. So I'm not sure where is 180 came from. But it's paid and I have had legal advice. The legal advice was me asking if I pay will this impact recovery of the costs to my home. Sounds bad but I really don't care about the 180. He was taking up to much of my time and worry.

Regarding regulations of how to drain down a system and capp etc. I have a series of very detailed photos and videos of the leak in progress and it clearly shows that closing of bleed valve's didn't happen. Clearly shows that the open ends weren't capped. Also shows that the filling loop wasn't correctly isolated

 

[centralheatking]

Regarding the multiple insurance claims, it's been put down as only 1 claim which is the correct thing. They should never have suggested that it would be multiple claims until they had all the facts. After they reviewed the claim they have confirmed one claim.

He's been pestering for his money and has put be under a lot of pressure to settle. I called him and said you only did 4 hours. I only asked what dose he call a "days labour" he replied 8 hours. Because of the amount of pressure from him I have unfortunately paid £180. 180 isn't half 250 or 270. So I'm not sure where is 180 came from. But it's paid and I have had legal advice. The legal advice was me asking if I pay will this impact recovery of the costs to my home. Sounds bad but I really don't care about the 180. He was taking up to much of my time and worry.

Regarding regulations of how to drain down a system and capp etc. I have a series of very detailed photos and videos of the leak in progress and it clearly shows that closing of bleed valve's didn't happen. Clearly shows that the open ends weren't capped. Also shows that the filling loop wasn't correctly isolated

How dreadfull to be put under such pressure like that, I feel ashamed on behalf of our trade.
I certainly would have held out but peace of mind is paramount and as you say £180 as a kiss off to this terd of the first order will relax you... regards centralheatking

 

[Best]

Regarding the multiple insurance claims, it's been put down as only 1 claim which is the correct thing. They should never have suggested that it would be multiple claims until they had all the facts. After they reviewed the claim they have confirmed one claim.

He's been pestering for his money and has put be under a lot of pressure to settle. I called him and said you only did 4 hours. I only asked what dose he call a "days labour" he replied 8 hours. Because of the amount of pressure from him I have unfortunately paid £180. 180 isn't half 250 or 270. So I'm not sure where is 180 came from. But it's paid and I have had legal advice. The legal advice was me asking if I pay will this impact recovery of the costs to my home. Sounds bad but I really don't care about the 180. He was taking up to much of my time and worry.

Regarding regulations of how to drain down a system and capp etc. I have a series of very detailed photos and videos of the leak in progress and it clearly shows that closing of bleed valve's didn't happen. Clearly shows that the open ends weren't capped. Also shows that the filling loop wasn't correctly isolated

Why did you pay the plumber any money? What pressure did he put on you?
He did a job for you and as a direct result of that it seems your house got flooded from open valves. I see no reason for any payment for such work to the plumber, but clearly you need compensation for all the damage.
The new filling loop work second job is different and that is fair enough for payment.
Now that you have paid some money looks like you were at least partly satisfied with the plumbers work. Were you? I would guess not.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the plumber knew it was to his advantage.
I wouldn’t take pressure from anyone

 

[Reading1986]

How dreadfull to be put under such pressure like that, I feel ashamed on behalf of our trade.
I certainly would have held out but peace of mind is paramount and as you say £180 as a kiss off to this terd of the first order will relax you... regards centralheatking

Honestly sounds very odd but the peace of mind I have now, from paying his bill or re agreed bill. It's one less worry. While I won't get that back. I have my claim going through, and they have confirmed they will be recovering all costs from his insurance company. But by paying him my line of communication between me and him thankfully has gone. Honestly horrible person to deal with. Extremely aggressive. Still to this day blaming the mains side filling loop valve. Had closed the system side as well, removed the filling hose and capped. Also capped open ends and closed bleed valve's.....all of this wouldn't have happened. I done a fair amount of investigation of my own into how he should of isolated the system correctly etc. I actually think I could have done a better and more professional job

 

[Best]

Your first post asked should you pay the plumber. Advice given here was generally do not pay him.
If your story was correct, it was clear circumstances where you do not need to pay your plumber for the first job.
You employed a supposed professional but got unprofessional work - in fact incorrect and a very risky procedure done, which the plumber is fully liable.
Advice to inform plumber it was the insurances dealing with all monies was good advice

 

[ShaunCorbs]

I think you’ve done the wrong thing but let’s hope everything is ok regarding the claim as he can say Everything was fine as you’ve paid the bill

I hope the best for you

 

[Reading1986]

Your first post asked should you pay the plumber. Advice given here was generally do not pay him.
If your story was correct, it was clear circumstances where you do not need to pay your plumber for the first job.
You employed a supposed professional but got unprofessional work - in fact incorrect and a very risky procedure done, which the plumber is fully liable.
Advice to inform plumber it was the insurances dealing with all monies was good advice

My story is 100% correct. He was messaging every other day asking for the invoice to be paid. The filling loop was not the issue at all. I paid to get him off case. I am no where near satisfied with his work or his conduct. He got aggressive on the phone. I have a 2 week old baby and frankly I have far more important things to worry about than a planet demanding money for a completely bad job. Capping end and capping the filling loop seems to be a standard procedure. He used the filling loop as an excuse to not hold him self negligible
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I think you’ve done the wrong thing but let’s hope everything is ok regarding the claim as he can say Everything was fine as you’ve paid the bill

I hope the best for you

I know I've done the wrong thing completely. Regarding the claim me paying will not affect my claim or my insurance company recovering the money from insurance company
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Why did you pay the plumber any money? What pressure did he put on you?
He did a job for you and as a direct result of that it seems your house got flooded from open valves. I see no reason for any payment for such work to the plumber, but clearly you need compensation for all the damage.
The new filling loop work second job is different and that is fair enough for payment.
Now that you have paid some money looks like you were at least partly satisfied with the plumbers work. Were you? I would guess not.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the plumber knew it was to his advantage.
I wouldn’t take pressure from anyone

He was messaging every other day asking for money, even though every other day I told him I will pay your invoice once my home has been put back to the condition it was on before he entered my home. May look like I'm a little bit satisfied...but I'm not at all I've got a big claim going through. The stress and the inconvenience and him messaging and calling for the money. I just paid to get rid of him. The filling loop I'm pretty sure wasn't faulty. For one he didn't close the system side valve. So how dose that make it faulty. Ok the mains side let by a little. Capp it and replace a £10 valve....no problem. He used the filling loop as an excuse for flooding my home.

 

[rpm]

Can't believe that this has taken 66 posts where as it was really dealt with in the first few replies.

 

[Reading1986]

Can't believe that this has taken 66 posts where as it was really dealt with in the first few replies.

Well I am sorry, people and my self were posting because they are interested maybe even concern that trades are conducting themselves in this manner.

 

[rpm]

That's not what I meant at all!

 

[Reading1986]

That's not what I meant at all!

My apologies what did you mean by your post?

 

[centralheatking]

Can't believe that this has taken 66 posts where as it was really dealt with in the first few replies.

Maybe there others that might like to see their options in this sorry situation. I agree with you in many ways as I am a business man with legal advice on tap and been around the block many times and this would have been sorted at source on the day. However PF is here to assist all with things related and others are not so savvy as us. Centralheatking

 

[Reading1986]

Maybe there others that might like to see their options in this sorry situation. I agree with you in many ways as I am a business man with legal advice on tap and been around the block many times and this would have been sorted at source on the day. However PF is here to assist all with things related and others are not so savvy as us. Centralheatking

Thank you completely agree. Had I known what do, I wouldn't have posted. Never been in a situation where a trades man has done so so wrong and didn't have the respect or decency to put his hands up. Thank you for every ones comments.

 

[SJB060685]

Can I just say Reading1986 that I genuinely feel for you and the trauma you've suffered but I should point out that more often than not tradesmen you find on these search sites aren't that good, a good tradesmen doesn't need to advertise, it's all through word of mouth.

 

[Reading1986]

Can I just say Reading1986 that I genuinely feel for you and the trauma you've suffered but I should point out that more often than not tradesmen you find on these search sites aren't that good, a good tradesmen doesn't need to advertise, it's all through word of mouth.

Funny you say that I was recommended him from a friend. So he was found via word of mouth. But I generally agree with you. I never use for example check a trade to find a tradesmen. Suppose I've just been really really unlucky with this recommendation

 

[Spectric]

Hi all

Any decent tradesman would want to deliver quality work and total customer satisfaction and never leave a job in such a way as it could cause flooding. It is not hard to ensure a system is either drained and cannot refill or is filled and any unfinished sections are sealed of / caped.

This reminds me of the house I brought some years back, the owner moved out and left it without any heating and it froze bursting several pipes. I came along for a viewing and apart from the obvious water damage there was no water supply in the utility or main bathroom. On investigation the plumber had just cut the burst pipes and capped them so the rest still worked. So the seller got the plumbers back to resolve and they could not fix without damage to the bathroom and making a hole in a wall to access above the utility room so I agreed to forget the utility but fix the bathroom and adjust the house price accordingly. Two weeks later I came back for another viewing before signing on the dotted line and there was water leaking everywhere. This time I found two endfeeds that had been fluxed and not soldered, several loose compression fittings one which had the olive missing and on one run of pipe there was 3 isolation valves and 4 couplings in a two metre length!!! Plumbers turned up and repaired what they could, they were about to leave when I asked why there were not going to pressure test the system for leaks and they replied they did not currently have one that worked and when questioned about the number of fittings used they said it was there trainee who had no tube left so connected up the offcuts. I am now semi retired but every job I did I left knowing I had done a job that I could be proud of and happy to put my name to, this attitude seems to be slipping away and the cowboys are giving everyone a bad name.

 

[Ric2013]

Can I just say Reading1986 that I genuinely feel for you and the trauma you've suffered but I should point out that more often than not tradesmen you find on these search sites aren't that good, a good tradesmen doesn't need to advertise, it's all through word of mouth.

So if I have I customers who say they are happy (they even come back for further works) and even have some recommendations, why wasn't I getting enough work without advertising? My theory is that I'm not really interested in the big jobs (I'm small and skinny and so's my van) and I'm quite happy with repairs and improvements plus I don't do gas, so I don't have the repeat custom of annual checks and servicing. I was planning on advertising (then shi* happened and I ended up being stuck abroad).

I don't think, however, that I'm not good at what I do. (I'm actually very self critical, but then I compare myself with the competition and realise I'm well above average). I don't think think we should write off plumbers who advertise just because they advertise. Making a name for yourself takes significant time, and you may need to make a living before you naturally develop the contacts you need to get enough work by word of mouth.
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they were about to leave when I asked why there were not going to pressure test the system for leaks and they replied they did not currently have one that worked

Technically correct - it would make sense to pressure test. However, in practice, a very slight weep will often not show in a standard water pressure test and very customers are prepared to pay the extra time a pressure test would take. Obviously it depends on the circustances, but in repair and modification work, a visual inspection is often far more useful than a pressure test. I can therefore understand why a minority of plumbers own pressure testers: they aren't actually very often brought into play. Obviously in your case, there was presumably hidden pipework and a pressure test would have made sense and been something you would have wanted to pay for. To be fair, a reasonably good test could have been made using just the mains pressure.

 

[Spectric]

Hi there

I would have accepted a slight weep but they had produced an indoor water feature! They did not even inspect their work and knowing the state of the pipework I would have pressure tested just to prove that there were no more leaks.

On a positive note their shody work meant I got a good reduction in the price of the house and have now replaced all the pipework and done it properly. In the days of when lead solder was the norm I rarely pressure tested because I never had any problems but still not convinced with lead free.

 

[Pickwickpick]

So if I have I customers who say they are happy (they even come back for further works) and even have some recommendations, why wasn't I getting enough work without advertising? My theory is that I'm not really interested in the big jobs (I'm small and skinny and so's my van) and I'm quite happy with repairs and improvements plus I don't do gas, so I don't have the repeat custom of annual checks and servicing. I was planning on advertising (then shi* happened and I ended up being stuck abroad).

I don't think, however, that I'm not good at what I do. (I'm actually very self critical, but then I compare myself with the competition and realise I'm well above average). I don't think think we should write off plumbers who advertise just because they advertise. Making a name for yourself takes significant time, and you may need to make a living before you naturally develop the contacts you need to get enough work by word of mouth.
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Totally agree, every good plumber that doesn't need to advertise had to start somewhere and that will have involved advertising of some shape or form, unless they were e.g. an apprentis and took over the business with its pre existing customers. Also as much as word of mouth recommendations are best, its still not a guarantee, just the other week I was fixing a mess left behind by a plumber that had been recommended by one of the customer's neighbours.

I've had to move my work from London back to Birmingham due to Covid as can't stay in the house I used to during the week. It all happened with very little notice so had to use one of the dreaded websites to drum up work while I build up word of mouth. If you focus on smaller jobs (as I'm also doing at the moment) as you say its a lot harder to reliably fill your week up without some form of advertising.

 

[Nwalky]

Hello

I thought I'd post a post.

I am currently under going a full re dec of the whole house, new flooring, skirting, architrave window boards and nice new rads.

Plumber came to fit the new rads, drained down the system. To begin the work the next day.

I had a call from the kitchen floor tilers to say there was a leak coming into the lounge ceiling / window reveal. Ruined the reveal. Needs plastering or maybe replacing

I called the plumber and he came back round to check straight away. I wasn't in at time and made my way back home straight away. Water had come in from the above bedrooms and into the lounge reveal. I got home and checked the living room out. And around the whole house. Checked everywhere. Plumber had left by the time I got there.

The next day the kitchen tilers rang again to say there is water coming coming through the kitchen ceiling ( alot of it) all over the kitchen floor. Wrecked the new kitchen plinths. Potentially the kitchen floor grout. All the other rooms have had ply laid down ready for amitco flooring. The ply had had a fair amount of water over it. Ensuite flooded. Landing carpet completely soaked around the rad area. So I've had to open an insurance claim.

The plumber is saying that both valves. The heating filling loop were letting water by. So even thou he had drained the system it was letting water by and filling the system up.

Question should he have discovered that the "valves" for the heating filling loop were at "fault" when draining the system. Or is this completely avoidable.

Now left with a huge amount of unnecessary damage. Plumber is demanding a days wage when was only there from 9 to 2pm. He's replaced the 2 valves on the filling loop as he said they were at fault. Also bearing in mind I had a rad capped off month before and some work a month before that. So the system has been drained down twice fully successfully without any issues...oh this was done by a different plumber. Who I would normally use. But was unfortunately to busy with his schedule to fit me on for this rad work.

So has the plumber been incompetent and not checking the system correctly and making sure it's draining down correctly, also should he have had detected these issues when draining down the system, therefore avoiding all of these issues I now have / or should he have detected the issues on his second visit when I called to say i had a leak in the lounge from the rad pipes above.


Should I pay or not...would really like some advice. Never had this much damage done or any after a trades man has been in.

To be fair, we had a very similar experience recently where we had drained an unvented heating system. 2 days later we got a call to say that water had came through the ceiling.

Dont get me wrong, we were maybe a bit more complacent than normal because the house was a gut out and getting completely redone. If the house was in such a state that it was getting tiled or decorated then we would have blanked valves etc.

What happened in our circumstance was the gate valve at the F&E tank was old and passing ever so slightly, so even though we drained it at the MT cock outside, it was passing so slowly that we wouldn't have even known.

I always like to give the benefit of the doubt and you could argue that the system having been drained down recently could have affected the old valve at the tank and it was then starting to pass but at the same time if the house was in such a condition that water damage would be catastrophic with regards finishing then more precautions should have been taken.

If it were me and I had caused damaged to a finished house I dont think I would have the brass balls to then demand that I be paid for the shift that I spent there. I think I would just take the hit, apologise and then the customer can at least use the money I was to get to pay towards any remedial work.

I think I've convinced myself actually, the guy made an arse of it, end of