Plumbing Vacancy

[Toxic Ted]

I'm not in a position to employ anyone and wont be anytime soon, but i can see it from both sides. Keiran needs to start someone and see how they get on. If it works out and the new boy earns him some money then i'm sure he would improve the pay in line with the money he is making him. If on the other hand the new boy isn't the energetic type,then he will be on low money or out on his ear. The thing here is to differentiate between being self employed and employed as the rates are very different. Tamz has stated that you get what you pay for,but there has to be an accessment period to see if he can justify being paid more.I think it takes a brave man to take someone on at the moment so i hope it works out well for you Keiran and the new man you are making an oppertunity for.

 

[julesverne]

Just a thought. The hard bit is getting a foot in the door. If your any good you could always show that your bringing in extra money and ask your employer for a suitable pay rise . It works both ways. Some times you have to step back to move forward.

very good point.

 

[erpkid]

I'm not in a position to employ anyone and wont be anytime soon, but i can see it from both sides. Keiran needs to start someone and see how they get on. If it works out and the new boy earns him some money then i'm sure he would improve the pay in line with the money he is making him. If on the other hand the new boy isn't the energetic type,then he will be on low money or out on his ear. The thing here is to differentiate between being self employed and employed as the rates are very different. Tamz has stated that you get what you pay for,but there has to be an accessment period to see if he can justify being paid more.I think it takes a brave man to take someone on at the moment so i hope it works out well for you Keiran and the new man you are making an oppertunity for.

Or woman ?

 

[fogarty]

If this was in South Yorkshire I'd be knocking on his door. Beggars can't be choosers. Times are hard as we all know.so many people round here being made redundant. There is no sign of a recovery around here. Don't get me going about politics . Me and my best mate are exact opposites on politics and we have an agreement not to talk about it.

 

[lame plumber]

I know of a superb sparky working for another guy and he's on £8 per hour. This guy could be on his own se and earning good money but doesnt have it in him to take the jump so he is staying put, his choice! So for a plumber needing work £8 per hr is ok in my mind, some one else is taking the risk and putting his bum on the line and earning off him. Someone will come along and take it. Personally I wouldnt get out of bed for that, and if you want gas qualified min of £12 per hr and rising. But like anything some will take the risks and others will be happy to work for a wage!

 

[tamz]

He's getting one more eager person off the dole. A man who can feed his family and feel proud he's done a days work. I say fair play and good luck to you mate,you're giving someone an opportunity and some self esteem.
I would however say you may and that's may have quick staff turnaround as they may use you for an experience leg up.

Jefaz things in the real world are not quite like that.
Any plumber worth his salt who may find himself in the unfortunate position of being made redundant may feel the need out of desperation to take up a position at £8/hr but don't think for a minute you have gained an asset (that is the word) to your company. You have found someone who will do the bare minimum of what they need to do, rob you rotten with whatever they can carry and will pi ss off at the first sign of something better probably dropping you in a load of shyt on the way out.

If you are going to employ someone do it right. Pay them a decent rate and you will get a good return for your money plus you may also get a long time asset for your company.

 

[jefaz]

I'm not saying there aren't people like that. For me though if I had lost job and that's what was available I would still work to the best of my ability as I have pride in what I do. And I'm sure there are a good few plumbers who would also feel the same. I would however be looking to move on for a better wage hence the staff turnaround comment.

 

[tamz]

True but most would think for £8 this is all you are getting no matter what they were capable of

 

[tamz]

AND I'll have this bag of fittings for my wee job on the side :lol:

 

[Ray Stafford]

Jefaz things in the real world are not quite like that.
Any plumber worth his salt who may find himself in the unfortunate position of being made redundant may feel the need out of desperation to take up a position at £8/hr but don't think for a minute you have gained an asset (that is the word) to your company. You have found someone who will do the bare minimum of what they need to do, rob you rotten with whatever they can carry and will pi ss off at the first sign of something better probably dropping you in a load of shyt on the way out.

If you are going to employ someone do it right. Pay them a decent rate and you will get a good return for your money plus you may also get a long time asset for your company.

Hi Tamz

I have to disagree quite comprehensively with this.

In my experience, the likelihood of an employee stealing from you is not related to how much he or she earns. Either they are theives or they aren't.

How hard someone works is also not related to how much you pay them - unless they are on some form of piecework.

The chances of someone leaving ARE related to how much you pay them, particularly if they have a wife and kids, but its not nearly as direct a relationship as you would think. I have hired lots of people who have taken a pay-cut to work for us, because they have been unhappy with their previous employer.

The "correct" pay is somewhere between what value they bring to your business (there are no circumstances where you should pay more than this) and the minimum that is needed to get them out of bed. (obviously you can't pay less than this). Where along that line you meet is mostly about your relative negotiating skills, and the supply and demand for labour in your area.

 

[Toxic Ted]

AND I'll have this bag of fittings for my wee job on the side :lol:

I think that kind of person would have the fittings if you paid them well Tamz, so i disagree with that point, but still think if you treat people with respect and let them know there is more money if they can prove their worth then they will work for it if they are of the right mind. Monkeys can be overpaid so a probation period would need to be implemented.

 

[fogarty]

Its not often I disagree with Tamz but your either a theif or not and the money isnt the tipping point.I wouldnt steal off my employer.Perhaps youve had bad experiences but were not all the same.

 

[TomLane]

Interesting reading all the different views on this!

Firstly I'd like to say big kudos to Keiran for being in the position to need to hire someone! Massive respect to you for getting to where you are now, even in the tough times we are all experiencing.

Secondly, I'm of the school of thought that as long as the wage is fairly reasonable & the job is fairly decent then I would do anything should I be in the position of needing to. Whether that be in the plumbing industry or elsewhere. But then that's because I feel I have the work ethic of any money is better than no money.

Admittedly I see the point some are making about being worth more if you have more experience/qualifications etc.

We're all on our knees or being vent over & shafted one way or another at the minute so anyway we can make a little extra money (legally) has got to be a bonus.

 

[tamz]

Ray speaking as someone who has been employed and as an employer i can tell you emphatically every plumber i have ever known (and i know 100's, probably more) will take from their employer whatever they need or want. This IS directly related to how much they earn as the ones on better terms don't need and can't be bothered doing homers (sidies).
Your direct experience may be different as your situation is different. Stocks are mainly computerised with regular stock checks done and in the main your staff don't have the capability to use your stock but don't be complacent for a minute. I could get a knocked off boiler from a merchants tomorrow (well monday) if i wanted one despite the computerisation and they have been in their jobs for many years but they are a different breed from what i'm talking about.
How hard someone works IS directly related to what they are being paid and yes generally guys on piece work will work much harder (usually cutting corners) than guys on an hourly rate. But. People know their worth. If the last time you worked for 8/hr was 15 years ago you aint going to pull out many stops unless you need to (usually for their own ends) which leads on to the next point when they are off at the blink of an eye.

Keiran will learn. I'm not knocking him. This is a new experience and new aspect of the trade to him.
Like most things in the trade he will get a steep learning curve.

 

[Ray Stafford]

I have just been doing some research for an obituary that I am writing for a mate who died recently.

He was a highly skilled engineer, with an HNC, bachelors and masters degrees in engineering. I knew that he worked as a freelancer all over the country for some big names, including Rolls Royce and Bombardier, and on some prestige projects, some of which were hush-hush. I only discovered recently from his brother that between these highly lucrative contracts he would sometimes go and stack shelves for Tescos.

 

[Ray Stafford]

Ray speaking as someone who has been employed and as an employer i can tell you emphatically every plumber i have ever known (and i know 100's, probably more) will take from their employer whatever they need or want. This IS directly related to how much they earn as the ones on better terms don't need and can't be bothered doing homers (sidies).
Your direct experience may be different as your situation is different. Stocks are mainly computerised with regular stock checks done and in the main your staff don't have the capability to use your stock but don't be complacent for a minute. I could get a knocked off boiler from a merchants tomorrow (well monday) if i wanted one despite the computerisation and they have been in their jobs for many years but they are a different breed from what i'm talking about.
How hard someone works IS directly related to what they are being paid and yes generally guys on piece work will work much harder (usually cutting corners) than guys on an hourly rate. But. People know their worth. If the last time you worked for 8/hr was 15 years ago you aint going to pull out many stops unless you need to (usually for their own ends) which leads on to the next point when they are off at the blink of an eye.

Keiran will learn. I'm not knocking him. This is a new experience and new aspect of the trade to him.
Like most things in the trade he will get a steep learning curve.

I'm not complacent about staff stealing. Staff stealing from a merchant is almost ridiculously easy. Getting away with it long term is virtually impossible. I am rarely surprised when we catch an employee stealing - with the size of company, this inevitably happens regrettably often. What does surprise me is that they think we are so stupid that we won't catch them.

 

[fogarty]

Ray speaking as someone who has been employed and as an employer i can tell you emphatically every plumber i have ever known (and i know 100's, probably more) will take from their employer whatever they need or want. This IS directly related to how much they earn as the ones on better terms don't need and can't be bothered doing homers (sidies).
Your direct experience may be different as your situation is different. Stocks are mainly computerised with regular stock checks done and in the main your staff don't have the capability to use your stock but don't be complacent for a minute. I could get a knocked off boiler from a merchants tomorrow (well monday) if i wanted one despite the computerisation and they have been in their jobs for many years but they are a different breed from what i'm talking about.
How hard someone works IS directly related to what they are being paid and yes generally guys on piece work will work much harder (usually cutting corners) than guys on an hourly rate. But. People know their worth. If the last time you worked for 8/hr was 15 years ago you aint going to pull out many stops unless you need to (usually for their own ends) which leads on to the next point when they are off at the blink of an eye.

Keiran will learn. I'm not knocking him. This is a new experience and new aspect of the trade to him.
Like most things in the trade he will get a steep learning curve.

You've made your mind up from experience and what I say won't change your mind but I work the same regardless of what I'm paid . I have one standard and I work to that. I hate people that that want stuff doing on the cheap.

 

[tamz]

That was his choice Ray but i'm sure it wasn't so he could pay the gas bill.
Personal choice is a million miles away from necessity.

 

[Ray Stafford]

How hard someone works IS directly related to what they are being paid and yes generally guys on piece work will work much harder (usually cutting corners) than guys on an hourly rate. But. People know their worth. If the last time you worked for 8/hr was 15 years ago you aint going to pull out many stops unless you need to (usually for their own ends) which leads on to the next point when they are off at the blink of an eye.

Not my experience at all (although I agree with you about the piece work and cutting corners.

I reckon that the degree to which an employee puts himself out is dependent on

1) what sort of person they are
2) how they are managed by their immediate supervisor/manager
3) how they are treated by the organisation as a whole
4) how the people round them work
5) what sort of person they are (again).

Money comes into 3) on that list, but its far from being the main motivator

 

[tamz]

I've employed 18 guys over the years and only ever had one who asked before he took and i gave him it anyway usually for the price of a pint. I'm no fool and knew what the others did (and was sometimes told) but tolerated it and brought it up many times. It always goes on but none of them were/are greedy but as you know Ray employing people is not just about paying a wage.
As far as treating employees goes i'd like to think i have been a good and fair employer. I pay a fair to very good rate but expect a top quality return and will dish out retribution if need be. I am always aproachable and willing to listen. Yes i can go really balistic at times but i also have a good heart. I've done it all from fighting their battles (literally) to marriage counseling and social worker. They have all been a fairly treated part of my life more like family really. (perhaps they really all hate me lol)

As i've said Kieran will learn maybe quicker than he expects.

 

[fogarty]

We obviously move in different circles. If a employee stole from me then he wouldn't be working for me the next day. Even though my employer only thinks of profit and couldn't care less about me I still do my best because it's not for him it's what I do. People I work with say don't do that ,slow down, why should I do that etc. I have my own standards and can't drop below that or I won't sleep. Dare I say it maybe scots. No I won't say it.

 

[tamz]

Obviously i value my staff despite their indiscretions.
So you've never gone home and emptied your pockets of screws and fittings before they go in the wash. Bet you don't take it back next day :wink:
Different circles indeed.

 

[tamz]

I deliberately ignored the last bit

 

[fogarty]

Edit button disappeared I take the scot thing I didn't say back. Tamz I'm sorry the people you have employed in the past have let you down but some people would love to work for a decent employer and wouldn't take advantage.

 

[fogarty]

Don't know what's happened to my part of the forum but the edit and like buttons have disappeareddisappeared