Pump hoses can be bent?

[Jurgenjay]

Hi,

I just had a shower pump installed, but the manufactory Salamander Pumps Technical Advisor said :"The silver anti vibration hoses are bent 90 degrees. These are to be straight as per manufactory installation guide. For this reason, as how it has been installed it will not validate the warranty."

I checked with the installer who said: the hoses are flexible, it can be bent, it's no problem.

I don't know which one is correct, please would you check the photos of the pump and confirm if it is OK?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Ric2013]

HE could claim on his insurance if being sued, but unlikely that it will cover this. My broker explained it to me like this:

If you are installing [a shower pump] and you do a bad job of it, the insurance doesn't cover. You can't insure for bad work. On the other hand, if, in the process of installing, you drop it on the customer's foot and they end up off work, or a water connection you are removing turns out to be full of water and you flood the house, that's what you're insured for.

 

[Jurgenjay]

HE could claim on his insurance if being sued, but unlikely that it will cover this. My broker explained it to me like this:

If you are installing [a shower pump] and you do a bad job of it, the insurance doesn't cover. You can't insure for bad work. On the other hand, if, in the process of installing, you drop it on the customer's foot and they end up off work, or a water connection you are removing turns out to be full of water and you flood the house, that's what you're insured for.

Thank you very much!

Your broker's explanation does sound the normal case in terms of insurance is about.

It seems that if a tradesman does a bad job and being irresponsible, the only way to get it right is to take him to court---but this needs proof and take time and effort, therefore lots of household customers will just take it as it is... sad story and reality!

 

[king of pipes]

Insurance is a necessary evil I recently renewed my public liability often installers insure themselves as plumbing and heating engineers thinking it covers them for the work they carry out It doesn't, until I put all my insurance policies in the hands of a broker , I found out I wasn't covered for all the work I carry out , typically bathroom installations we need to add other trades to our insurance - minor building works , tiling, painting decorating, electrical work , floor laying and list every type of work we do , Hot work , working at height in lofts in consealed spaces to be covered and also anything we carry in our vehicles which could be dangerous . My understanding is if we carry out work and that work then fails and causes damage to your property or yourselves then there's blame so your entitled to make a claim, that work could be poor as yours or be the perfect installation, but a component fails and leaks causing damage it's not untill there's damage can a claim be made.
You cannot make a claim for poor workmanship unfortunately until it fails and causes damage Regards kop

 

[Jurgenjay]

Insurance is a necessary evil I recently renewed my public liability often installers insure themselves as plumbing and heating engineers thinking it covers them for the work they carry out It doesn't, until I put all my insurance policies in the hands of a broker , I found out I wasn't covered for all the work I carry out , typically bathroom installations we need to add other trades to our insurance - minor building works , tiling, painting decorating, electrical work , floor laying and list every type of work we do , Hot work , working at height in lofts in consealed spaces to be covered and also anything we carry in our vehicles which could be dangerous . My understanding is if we carry out work and that work then fails and causes damage to your property or yourselves then there's blame so your entitled to make a claim, that work could be poor as yours or be the perfect installation, but a component fails and leaks causing damage it's not untill there's damage can a claim be made.
You cannot make a claim for poor workmanship unfortunately until it fails and causes damage Regards kop

Thank you for the explanation! I can understand the difference.

All you said is from a plumber/gas engineer side if they can claim insurance, right?

So from customer side, if customer wants to get the damage-caused cost back, they have to take the tradesman to court so the tradesman then can see if they can claim insurance, right?
As earlier reply said, household customers cannot claim tradesman's insurance, they can only sue them so the tradesman will see if they claim insurance.

My above understanding is right?

 

[Chuck]

So from customer side, if customer wants to get the damage-caused cost back, they have to take the tradesman to court so the tradesman then can see if they can claim insurance, right?

That's one option. The other is to claim under your own house insurance and your insurers will attempt to recover their costs from the tradesman.

All the advice in this thread is for the typical case. You need to check your own insurance and the terms and conditions attached to the contract you have with the plumber and probably consult a lawyer to be absolutely sure what applies in your own specific circumstances.

You need to check the credentials and experience of any plumber you employ. It is not a regulated profession so there are some cowboys. Best to go with a local firm that's been in business for a significant time and employs properly trained people. You want their reputation to be "quite expensive, careful work, excellent result" not "lowest quote, fast work, corners cut"

Also, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, it's not worth kicking up a fuss for work that's only going to cost a couple of hundred quid to have put right by someone competent. Write it off to experience and be careful to check the reputation of anyone who you use in future.

 

[Jurgenjay]

That's one option. The other is to claim under your own house insurance and your insurers will attempt to recover their costs from the tradesman.

All the advice in this thread is for the typical case. You need to check your own insurance and the terms and conditions attached to the contract you have with the plumber and probably consult a lawyer to be absolutely sure what applies in your own specific circumstances.

You need to check the credentials and experience of any plumber you employ. It is not a regulated profession so there are some cowboys. Best to go with a local firm that's been in business for a significant time and employs properly trained people. You want their reputation to be "quite expensive, careful work, excellent result" not "lowest quote, fast work, corners cut"

Also, unless you have a lot of time on your hands, it's not worth kicking up a fuss for work that's only going to cost a couple of hundred quid to have put right by someone competent. Write it off to experience and be careful to check the reputation of anyone who you use in future.

I agree with you for nearly everything you said!
Actually, as a customer, personally, I don't mind paying more for some competent tradesman to do a trouble-free job, he gets paid I have no issue left!---I wish I had a crystal ball!
However, it is difficult to choose the right person, for example, I normally find tradesman on Checkatrade, I check reviews first, the issue is everyone seems have good reviews....

 

[Ric2013]

I agree with you for nearly everything you said!
Actually, as a customer, personally, I don't mind paying more for some competent tradesman to do a trouble-free job, he gets paid I have no issue left!---I wish I had a crystal ball!
However, it is difficult to choose the right person, for example, I normally find tradesman on Checkatrade, I check reviews first, the issue is everyone seems have good reviews....

I actually know of a plumber in Essex who did some work for the mother of a personal friend of mine (now my customer!). Fitted new boiler without a system filter (he did give her a discount, in fairness), claiming inadequate space to fit one (I later fitted one retrospectively). This was after the lady called Baxi out who replaced the boiler heat exchanger under warranty when it blocked with system debris. The installer also fitted her programmer in an idiotic way such that the cables pulled out and then refused to rectify at a weekend (customer is a vulnerable person). The Benchmark certificate did not specify which brand of corrosion inhibitor was used, which hardly fills one with confidence.

Saw some online reviews (can't remember the platform) in which this installer is praised for providing a cheaper price and letting the customer know a powerflush wasn't needed, advice that differed from what some others had previously told this reviewer. Wonder if that reviewer will feel the same when the new boiler fails due to poor system water quality (powerflushes aren't always vital as there are other methods to clean a system, but simply omitting the powerflush to save time is not a valid method)? His customer (now my customer [manic laugh]) tried to leave a negative review and the installer managed to bully her into removing it.

 

[SJB060685]

It is a well known fact that no decent tradesman uses websites like checkatrade. Good professionals do not need websites like that to generate them an income. They are often fully booked for months at a time, sometimes more. They don’t come cheap but you get passion, pride and top quality results. Anyone who relies on places like checkatrade is nine times out of ten an inept person who is struggling for income and needs quick work. Admittedly some on these sites will be competent but very few. I see adverts for these places frequently and how they claim to police the sites and whittle out any bad eggs but I’m not convinced because all too often do we here horror stories such as you’ve experienced.

 

[king of pipes]

It is a well known fact that no decent tradesman uses websites like checkatrade. Good professionals do not need websites like that to generate them an income. They are often fully booked for months at a time, sometimes more. They don’t come cheap but you get passion, pride and top quality results. Anyone who relies on places like checkatrade is nine times out of ten an inept person who is struggling for income and needs quick work. Admittedly some on these sites will be competent but very few. I see adverts for these places frequently and how they claim to police the sites and whittle out any bad eggs but I’m not convinced because all too often do we here horror stories such as you’ve experienced.

Well said my friend that's exactly how it is I've never advertised don't do social media or have a website , and am always busy often to busy I've tried working with others but its never worked out they never put the same effort in as you say lack passion but still expect top dollar 😜 . Kop

 

[Ric2013]

I've been abroad for two years and I would need to advertise as I currently have no plumbing work on. I don't see that not advertising is a better plan, quite frankly. Have had one day's paid work in two months, and one lead by recommendation that I had to turn down as I wasn't qualified for the task in hand. Waiting to build up a trade by recommendations is a very slow and expensive process, especially in snobby areas like this where people don't talk to one another. Many firms advertise. In theory I disapprove, but not in practice!

Having said that, I'm not currently advertising as I have a lot of personal stuff on that means I'm busy with other stuff that I don't really need the work. Also I'll need to go abroad again for a couple of months in a few weeks, and so I wouldn't be able to provide the service I would be advertising and I'd just get a reputation for being unreliable. Plus, with 100,000 cases of Covid a day, I'd rather not mix with too many other people I don't know.

In fairness, when I was 5 years old and a drain off started leaking in the house, my mother called a plumber from the Yellow Pages. When I can actually concentrate on my work, I'd rather have it, even if that means advertising. You never know, I might get some nice simple work like a leaking pipe, a broken toilet, a failed immersion heater rather than the weird and wonderful things I get by recommendation because I have a reputation for having the patience for resolving weird problems!

 

[SJB060685]

Well said my friend that's exactly how it is I've never advertised don't do social media or have a website , and am always busy often to busy I've tried working with others but its never worked out they never put the same effort in as you say lack passion but still expect top dollar 😜 . Kop

The thing is any line of work involving mechanical and electrical engineering requires a certain level of passion The science behind what we do (or did in my case) can be quite complex and you’re simply not going to learn it without a passion for it. I often had people I know or plumbers I went to college with call me a nerd for going above and beyond when it came to studying and learning. I only study a subject because I want to be the best I can be. There’s no such thing as perfect in life in my opinion, all we can do is get as close to that as we possibly can.
Unfortunately a lot of tradesmen/women/people only learn enough to just do a job, often resulting in poor workmanship and a lack of understanding. My dad when he was alive was always saying “a little knowledge is far more dangerous than no knowledge” and that has always stuck with me.

 

[Ric2013]

Well said my friend that's exactly how it is I've never advertised don't do social media or have a website , and am always busy often to busy I've tried working with others but its never worked out they never put the same effort in as you say lack passion but still expect top dollar 😜 . Kop

How did you start out, out of interest then? Did you have a day job and ran the plumbing up as a sideline? I did this myself a few years ago, but then I had a crisis in the family that dragged me abroad for two years. Lost it all again. You have to laugh!

Back to the OP, what recommendation should he seek then? Because the gas fitter I used to use for my own house, recommended by a friend, is honest, knowledgeable, fairly skilled, expensive for the time he bothers to put in, but inexpensive because he doesn't put in much time, and in the end, does some really terrible rushed work to the point that I don't really want him in my house or trust him not to break my boiler (the work he did on a boiler install for a friend of mine was probably safe, but below the level required for college assessments at NVQ2 level). Unfortunately, most people who don't know enough about plumbing to recognise good or bad work from one another cannot really give recommendations.

 

[SJB060685]

I've been abroad for two years and I would need to advertise as I currently have no plumbing work on. I don't see that not advertising is a better plan, quite frankly. Have had one day's paid work in two months, and one lead by recommendation that I had to turn down as I wasn't qualified for the task in hand. Waiting to build up a trade by recommendations is a very slow and expensive process, especially in snobby areas like this where people don't talk to one another. Many firms advertise. In theory I disapprove, but not in practice!

Having said that, I'm not currently advertising as I have a lot of personal stuff on that means I'm busy with other stuff that I don't really need the work. Also I'll need to go abroad again for a couple of months in a few weeks, and so I wouldn't be able to provide the service I would be advertising and I'd just get a reputation for being unreliable. Plus, with 100,000 cases of Covid a day, I'd rather not mix with too many other people I don't know.

In fairness, when I was 5 years old and a drain off started leaking in the house, my mother called a plumber from the Yellow Pages. When I can actually concentrate on my work, I'd rather have it, even if that means advertising. You never know, I might get some nice simple work like a leaking pipe, a broken toilet, a failed immersion heater rather than the weird and wonderful things I get by recommendation because I have a reputation for having the patience for resolving weird problems!

Your routine is quite different from most peoples though isn’t mate. I believe you spend a lot of time in Italy? with frequent back and fourth’s.
I’m not saying everybody on those sites is inept and I did quote that in my comment. The point I was trying to make is the majority of people use those sites because without it they would have no work and it begs the question why?
We never advertised at all. My dad when he was younger worked all over the British Isles for some very big oil and gas companies, working on domestic appliances right the way up the an industrial scale and everything in between. By the time I started my apprenticeship the old man had built up over twenty years of customers through nothing but word of mouth. Admittedly the internet wasn’t a thing in his early days but he wouldn’t of needed that even if it was.
Unfortunately due to my poor health and my dads premature and untimely death in 2015 work stopped. All our customers suddenly had to find new engineers for their routine servicing and repairs. I just hope they found reputable firms, especially when we had several large country estates on our books where any incompetent fool could cause hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage on one failed job alone.

 

[Ric2013]

Your routine is quite different from most peoples though isn’t mate. I believe you spend a lot of time in Italy? with frequent back and fourth’s.
I’m not saying everybody on those sites is inept and I did quote that in my comment. The point I was trying to make is the majority of people use those sites because without it they would have no work and it begs the question why?
We never advertised at all. My dad when he was younger worked all over the British Isles for some very big oil and gas companies, working on domestic appliances right the way up the an industrial scale and everything in between. By the time I started my apprenticeship the old man had built up over twenty years of customers through nothing but word of mouth. Admittedly the internet wasn’t a thing in his early days but he wouldn’t of needed that even if it was.
Unfortunately due to my poor health and my dads premature and untimely death in 2015 work stopped. All our customers suddenly had to find new engineers for their routine servicing and repairs. I just hope they found reputable firms, especially when we had several large country estates on our books where any incompetent fool could cause hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of damage on one failed job alone.

You did say that some are competent, agreed. And I take your point that people don't advertise when they are already full of work and don't want any more. So you are correct to suggest that we should approach advertised plumbers with caution.

I accept that my situation is particular. But so is yours. You 'inherited' a lifetime of personal contacts and maintained that from your father, who built it up while being fully-paid. Which is fine. But not everyone takes on their father's trade, and some that do get into it do so because they are so useless that they can't make a go of anything of their own (not saying that applies to you, but I've seen it a lot in the rural area of Italy I was in, and I was in that situation myself running a business I was manifestly unsuited to, but luckily, unlike some, I had other options).

I think the thing about personal recommendations is that even if they are only based on the character of the person installing, a person of good character with a reputation to lose would, presented with the Manufacturer's Instructions, accept that a mistake had been made and would rectify.

 

[Chuck]

I accept that my situation is particular.

You've probably already thought of this but just in case...

When you want to restart your plumbing activity again, I'd suggest writing to some or all of your former customers saying that you're up and running again and are hoping that they'll consider you when they next need a plumber. It can be a boilerplate letter but personalise it by handwriting their name and your signature, and enclose your flyer / card / fridge magnet. Or send a Christmas card if it's that time of year.

Don't send hundreds of letters out at the same time or you might be swamped due to pent-up demand. Send out a small batch every couple of weeks until you have the measure of the impact. Start slow and ramp up to find the sweet spot.

 

[Ric2013]

You've probably already thought of this but just in case...

When you want to restart your plumbing activity again, I'd suggest writing to some or all of your former customers saying that you're up and running again and are hoping that they'll consider you when they next need a plumber. It can be a boilerplate letter but personalise it by handwriting their name and your signature, and enclose your flyer / card / fridge magnet. Or send a Christmas card if it's that time of year.

Don't send hundreds of letters out at the same time or you might be swamped due to pent-up demand. Send out a small batch every couple of weeks until you have the measure of the impact. Start slow and ramp up to find the sweet spot.

I had considered that. It probably contravenes GDPR, but the right customers will probably overlook that and be pleased to know I'm available. Hearing it from you makes me realise it isn't one of my bonkers ideas.

 

[SJB060685]

I had considered that. It probably contravenes GDPR, but the right customers will probably overlook that and be pleased to know I'm available. Hearing it from you makes me realise it isn't one of my bonkers ideas.

It’s not a bonkers idea buddy. Your situation is different to most and you adapt to it. At the end of the day most of us on here know what they’re on about. I know my worth, I can see it in others and I’ve seen it in you. You clearly know what you’re on about, you don’t know everything but none of us do and if a little bit of advertising or communication helps you get rolling again then fair enough.
Please don’t think my above comments were a direct shot at you because they’re not. It’s just I here too many horror stories of websites like that which leaves me with no faith in them.

 

[king of pipes]

How did you start out, out of interest then? Did you have a day job and ran the plumbing up as a sideline? I did this myself a few years ago, but then I had a crisis in the family that dragged me abroad for two years. Lost it all again. You have to laugh!

Back to the OP, what recommendation should he seek then? Because the gas fitter I used to use for my own house, recommended by a friend, is honest, knowledgeable, fairly skilled, expensive for the time he bothers to put in, but inexpensive because he doesn't put in much time, and in the end, does some really terrible rushed work to the point that I don't really want him in my house or trust him not to break my boiler (the work he did on a boiler install for a friend of mine was probably safe, but below the level required for college assessments at NVQ2 level). Unfortunately, most people who don't know enough about plumbing to recognise good or bad work from one another cannot really give recommendations.

I was indeed employed, my last job for 27 years as a commercial plumbing and heating engineer I have always done my own work aswell so over the years built up a customer base took the plunge 9 years ago now and haven't looked back my work comes from recommendations and past customers , I work with two kitchen fitting teams and a few small builders but I keep sensible I don't want to spend months and months on projects lots of small jobs are better than one big project. Kop

 

[Chuck]

It probably contravenes GDPR, but the right customers will probably overlook that and be pleased to know I'm available.

My understanding (based on a two-hour GDPR training session so YMMV) is that unless they have opted-out, marketing/information of the type I suggested to previous customers comes under the 'legitimate interests' basis for processing personal data. To be on the safe side, just include a sentence that says 'Let me know if you do not want me to contact you again in future.' Also, don't send to customers who weren't reasonably happy with your work!

Here's the ICO's guidance:

Legitimate interests

ico.org.uk

 

[Ric2013]

My understanding (based on a two-hour GDPR training session so YMMV) is that unless they have opted-out, marketing/information of the type I suggested to previous customers comes under the 'legitimate interests' basis for processing personal data. To be on the safe side, just include a sentence that says 'Let me know if you do not want me to contact you again in future.' Also, don't send to customers who weren't reasonably happy with your work!

Here's the ICO's guidance:

Legitimate interests

ico.org.uk

Good to know. Thank you pal!

 

[Jurgenjay]

I actually know of a plumber in Essex who did some work for the mother of a personal friend of mine (now my customer!). Fitted new boiler without a system filter (he did give her a discount, in fairness), claiming inadequate space to fit one (I later fitted one retrospectively). This was after the lady called Baxi out who replaced the boiler heat exchanger under warranty when it blocked with system debris. The installer also fitted her programmer in an idiotic way such that the cables pulled out and then refused to rectify at a weekend (customer is a vulnerable person). The Benchmark certificate did not specify which brand of corrosion inhibitor was used, which hardly fills one with confidence.

Saw some online reviews (can't remember the platform) in which this installer is praised for providing a cheaper price and letting the customer know a powerflush wasn't needed, advice that differed from what some others had previously told this reviewer. Wonder if that reviewer will feel the same when the new boiler fails due to poor system water quality (powerflushes aren't always vital as there are other methods to clean a system, but simply omitting the powerflush to save time is not a valid method)? His customer (now my customer [manic laugh]) tried to leave a negative review and the installer managed to bully her into removing it.

The Benchmark certificate did not specify which brand of corrosion inhibitor was used, which hardly fills one with confidence.
====Is the same brand of inhibitor a must for next adding? My installer said he added inhibitor when first installed my boiler, after a few months he drained the system but without adding the inhibitor, when I found out this & he did not want to come back to add the inhibitor. So I had to buy my own inhibitor then he came back to add it, so probably the inhibitor is not same as he first used!
Is this a problem?

 

[Ric2013]

The Benchmark certificate did not specify which brand of corrosion inhibitor was used, which hardly fills one with confidence.
====Is the same brand of inhibitor a must for next adding? My installer said he added inhibitor when first installed my boiler, after a few months he drained the system but without adding the inhibitor, when I found out this & he did not want to come back to add the inhibitor. So I had to buy my own inhibitor then he came back to add it, so probably the inhibitor is not same as he first used!
Is this a problem?

No manufacturer will admit that their inhibitor is compatible with other brands, but they probably are all compatible, so not something I would worry about. There is Sentinel X100 in my van, so if I'm working on a system with an unknown inhibitor in it, that is what I would top up with. Any inhibitor is probably better than none, so I'm happy I've added something reasonably decent. To get top results from inhibitor, it has to be added to a clean system, so adding it to a previously neglected system is always a compromise anyway.

My criticism is that if the installer cannot be bothered to specify the brand, then he's probably just buying whatever is cheap on the day with no interest in the quality or effectiveness of the product used. And slapdash paperwork gives me the idea that he will be equally slapdash when doing the manual work.

 

[Jurgenjay]

No manufacturer will admit that their inhibitor is compatible with other brands, but they probably are all compatible, so not something I would worry about. There is Sentinel X100 in my van, so if I'm working on a system with an unknown inhibitor in it, that is what I would top up with. Any inhibitor is probably better than none, so I'm happy I've added something reasonably decent. To get top results from inhibitor, it has to be added to a clean system, so adding it to a previously neglected system is always a compromise anyway.

My criticism is that if the installer cannot be bothered to specify the brand, then he's probably just buying whatever is cheap on the day with no interest in the quality or effectiveness of the product used. And slapdash paperwork gives me the idea that he will be equally slapdash when doing the manual work.

You are very right on the points of inhibitor and my installer!

My installer is exactly as your assumption! After he installed the radiators, one of them leaked, called him many times, finally he came, and within 5 mins putting some glue like thing and left! Then next few days the leaks developed more serious and then heavily! ----how could he apply some glue material for a radiator/pipe leak?!

After he removed the old boiler, the boiler pipe leaked water!
After he installed new boiler, the radiators all leaked water!
All the radiators now only top half hot, second half warm or cold, I got told in this forum that it is because not balanced properly---yes, every time he just rushed to leave never stay to balance the radiators properly.

When we found tap water flow became smaller, and no hot water, he came without checking just said it was because no return valve installed....Only after I paid another engineer who checked and concluded it was because pipe leaked!

So many examples I am not going to continue...

 

[SimonG]

Where did you find this installer?

 

[Jurgenjay]

Where did you find this installer?

On Checktrade.
I did check his review, looks good. And he is on the Worcester Bosch website as accredited installer for Worcester Bosch!
But later I found he is not knowledgable and experienced at all, I can easily give 10 solid examples! He used a guy did the installation, he did not do anything. But that guy left him.
For the boiler and unvented cylinder he installed, the Gas Safety Register came and checked, they found 7 big defects and produced a report requesting him to rectify them!

So having checked his review on Checktrade, and found his name on Worcester Bosch, BUT, all these actually mean nothing, as the review can be fake, Worcester Bosch did not take people strictly as long as you register and showed them some course certificate? But they do not physically check their ability or knowledge.

I thought how could I have avoided him but seems not possible at the time, as he is not expensive as well---maybe this is a reason he knows his ability is not good?