to zone or not to zone

[sheff paul]

First post after my 10 day ban(thanks Dan:thinking.Any way spoke to Gasafe last week,and any full heating will be classed as NCS if it is not zoned at least upstairs ,and downstairs on separate zones,this includes combi's.Personally i have no problem doing this,but have noticed many installers dont do it.The problem i have is pricing for jobs ,as this easily bumps up the price,and plenty of installers dont so on price they can beat me easily.Heatings have to comply to building regs,if not when you move a sharp eyed survey can cause massive problems.Just started up again trading,so what are your views on the regs do you zone,or are you taking a risk .

 

[SafeGasInstall]

just list on benchmark you offered customer does NOT wanna know and get customer to date and sign paper !

after that i do not think is our problem as this is what i do anyway

 

[Destroyer2813]

When you explain to people you may need to redo half there system to do it can see why they dont want it done but i thought it was only if the total floor area covered over 150qm bit silly zoning on a two up two down

 

[sheff paul]

When you explain to people you may need to redo half there system to do it can see why they dont want it done but i thought it was only if the total floor area covered over 150qm bit silly zoning on a two up two down

Must admit i thought that myself but in last weeks gas installer it shows zoning for under 150m2,it only aplies to new heatings ,i phoned gasafe head office they were a bit vague so contacted my area rep and he confirmed new heatings must be zoned or could be classed as NCS

 

[Gray0689]

Of course it should be zoned
Minimum up down and hot water only on a standard system

 

[anz]

Must admit i thought that myself but in last weeks gas installer it shows zoning for under 150m2,it only aplies to new heatings ,i phoned gasafe head office they were a bit vague so contacted my area rep and he confirmed new heatings must be zoned or could be classed as NCS

Your right in that houses under 150m2 need to be zoned. These can be controlled via a separate room thermostat in the other zone. If the property is over 150m2 then each zone must be controlled by a programmer and a room thermostat.

I read the article in last weeks Gas Installer and my understanding from that is that all new installations must be zoned as well as instances where you are replacing two or more controls. i.e. if your doing a combi - combi swap, there's no need to zone. But if your swapping boiler & Controls then you need to zone.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

How would you zone on new full CH install ?
Two motorized valves and to separate programers + room stats all wired to a s plan configuration ?

 

[anz]

First post after my 10 day ban(thanks Dan:thinking.Any way spoke to Gasafe last week,and any full heating will be classed as NCS if it is not zoned at least upstairs ,and downstairs on separate zones,this includes combi's.Personally i have no problem doing this,but have noticed many installers dont do it.The problem i have is pricing for jobs ,as this easily bumps up the price,and plenty of installers dont so on price they can beat me easily.Heatings have to comply to building regs,if not when you move a sharp eyed survey can cause massive problems.Just started up again trading,so what are your views on the regs do you zone,or are you taking a risk .

I understand your dilemma. Its hard competing as an installer who keeps up to date with all the regulations and does everything by the book compared with someone who does as little as possible and has lower costs.

Customers think your making stuff up to get more money when your quote shows more work then the others.

 

[anz]

How would you zone on new full CH install ?
Two motorized valves and to separate programers + room stats all wired to a s plan configuration ?

Yes, but if its under 150m2 you don't need two programmers.

 

[Destroyer2813]

How would you zone on new full CH install ?
Two motorized valves and to separate programers + room stats all wired to a s plan configuration ?

Done one few months back up and down own stats, two ports but same channel on clock.

What was the requirments on the council jobs u were doing of late

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Just to add full CH on a combi boiler install !

 

[powervan man]

just list on benchmark you offered customer does NOT wanna know and get customer to date and sign paper !

after that i do not think is our problem as this is what i do anyway

That might work when the house is occupied ,but when it's a new house with no customer ,the builder/developer always wants the work done to comply with the latest regs!

 

[Destroyer2813]

Guess were gonna be seeing more of the Honeywell stat heads that link to a stat/programmer so u can zone without re piping part of the system.

Things are getting silly now expecting people to do more and more, but not thinking about the people who have to pay for it

 

[sheff paul]

How would you zone on new full CH install ?
Two motorized valves and to separate programers + room stats all wired to a s plan configuration ?

this is what i am planning,phoned ideal as i have fitted a good few logic's wanted to know recomended distances from boiler to zone valves,incase heat exchanger plays up in a few years,a women answered the technical helpline,her first responce was ''cannot put zone valves on combi's'' asked her if she knew the building regs regarding zoning,phone went blank put me on hold for ages so i hung up.phoned gloworm they couldnt see any problems advised at least 1 metre away with 22mm auto bypass (top marks Gw).Looks like combi and zone valves are the new thing.This is gonna bump the price up,but if Gasafe are going to class anything else as NCS its got to be the new standard.it came out last year,the lads on new site work will have been doing it for quite some time.Might even help weed out the cowboys

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Thanks for replay , but how would you wire them up ? Could any one help here ? To me this will be a s plan

 

[stevetheplumber]

cant see how this will weed out the cowboys if anything it gives them a boost they can now undercut youeven more by the cost of a mv and stat and possibly some pipework
i didnt think we were allowed to classify a new system as ncs?

 

[sheff paul]

Thanks for replay , but how would you wire them up ? Could any one help here ? To me this will be a s plan

yes i suppose it is as a rough guide on a combi zoned system tell the spark to use a room stat in place of a cylinder stat,put a 22mm auto bypass before the valves,i would like to see some type of recomendation on the MI's on the exact set up they want,to avoid problems later

 

[sheff paul]

cant see how this will weed out the cowboys if anything it gives them a boost they can now undercut youeven more by the cost of a mv and stat and possibly some pipework
i didnt think we were allowed to classify a new system as ncs?

i think your right on second thoughts,many will be tempted to ''sod it''.Just dont want to get grief down the line when joe public gets wised up and starts suing.As it will be against building regs they could nail you to a wall.this could be a future mine field

 

[MattWeth]

If it's not already happened, the first manufacturer (probably Honeywell) to come out with a programmer specially designed to zone / s-plan a combi and meet the regs will make a killing.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

yes i suppose it is as a rough guide on a combi zoned system tell the spark to use a room stat in place of a cylinder stat,put a 22mm auto bypass before the valves,i would like to see some type of recomendation on the MI's on the exact set up they want,to avoid problems later

I will wire up my self ! Will call wb tomorrow to see what they say regards to this and will post here ! I am helping a junior member with full install start this Saturday !

 

[sheff paul]

If it's not already happened, the first manufacturer (probably Honeywell) to come out with a programmer specially designed to zone / s-plan a combi and meet the regs will make a killing.

too right mate they are probably reading this thread now

 

[dancinplumba]

you could use one mv and 2 prog stats, signal from down stairs stat turns boiler on and signal via upstairs stat opens valve and turns boiler on ?????

 

[MattWeth]

I can't help but think it's a backward step to remove a floor area / dwelling specific get out clause though.
How many 2 up 2 down owners will operate their systems zoned? Both zone valves will probably never move and they'll just end up with a load of extra complexity and cost on a combi install. And if they do operate it zoned, efficiency will suffer as their little boiler will operate ticking over and probably non-condensing?...

I guess boiler manufacturers will also have to develop super modulating combi's to cope.

 

[dancinplumba]

mebe just stat upstairs, and just opens valve so only heating upstairs when heating on downstairs ??? boiler switched on by downstairs prog stat ???

 

[SafeGasInstall]

Done one few months back up and down own stats, two ports but same channel on clock.

What was the requirments on the council jobs u were doing of late

the requirements was none , now i think of it the company i was subbing for could face a massive bile for this ,i was doing install under there instruction not my contract work ,so I think i am safe