to zone or not to zone

[sheff paul]

First post after my 10 day ban(thanks Dan:thinking.Any way spoke to Gasafe last week,and any full heating will be classed as NCS if it is not zoned at least upstairs ,and downstairs on separate zones,this includes combi's.Personally i have no problem doing this,but have noticed many installers dont do it.The problem i have is pricing for jobs ,as this easily bumps up the price,and plenty of installers dont so on price they can beat me easily.Heatings have to comply to building regs,if not when you move a sharp eyed survey can cause massive problems.Just started up again trading,so what are your views on the regs do you zone,or are you taking a risk .

 

[sheff paul]

I can't help but think it's a backward step to remove a floor area / dwelling specific get out clause though.
How many 2 up 2 down owners will operate their systems zoned? Both zone valves will probably never move and they'll just end up with a load of extra complexity and cost on a combi install. And if they do operate it zoned, efficiency will suffer as their little boiler will operate ticking over and probably non-condensing?...

I guess boiler manufacturers will also have to develop super modulating combi's to cope.

too right on small installs,even open plan lounges dont work zoned,if upstairs turns off drags all the heat from lounge area.Zoning works brill on big installs but it is going to be a pain in the arse on normal semis, terrace.This is thought up by the 'green police' not practical,expensive,and will probably cost work for fools like me who try and do things 'right',i guess with the responce on this thread you guys think the same

 

[SafeGasInstall]

yes just the same as you ,customer hard to convince on a boiler change then you got tell them they need another £300 on top for controls and m valves ,i guess this will be the end of COMBI BOILERS they will only get fitted in small flats where they have been design to go on first place . Customer will end up with heat only system boilers with vented or seal hot water ,who has them will update the system and stay with the same type not going to this large combis ,just my opinion here

 

[dancinplumba]

personally i will accept an NCS from gsr, what do they know about heating and efficiency ??
make the system be as safe and efficient as possible for customer.

 

[dancinplumba]

if the IDHEE told me its wrong then i would listen

 

[julesverne]

If it's not already happened, the first manufacturer (probably Honeywell) to come out with a programmer specially designed to zone / s-plan a combi and meet the regs will make a killing.

i think honeywell already have,

it's called CMZONE. uses them programmable trv heads that link wireless to a programmer. very expensive though

 

[dancinplumba]

put in a modulating room stat with weather compensation and be dammed. take the NCS and save your customer money

 

[dancinplumba]

not forgetting the trv's

 

[dancinplumba]

and what is a trv ? in effect it is a zone valve ?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I will ofer to customers my self on my list of work and customer will get to sign benchmark anyway so I thight up my belt and not get done by the building control or anybody else who is to push push push sell sell sell ! We are speaking of saving energy and pollution but still make and sell V8 and V10 and V12 engine on cars !

 

[MattWeth]

i think honeywell already have,

it's called CMZONE. uses them programmable trv heads that link wireless to a programmer. very expensive though

I guess addresable TRV's mean you can do away with zone valves. You've got as many zones as you have rads. Can't see it being an easy sell in a domestic situation though!

 

[AWheating]

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/cache/file/23/changes-to-part-l-affecting-new-heating-systems.pdf

i wonder how long its going to take one of the boiler manufactures to make a combi with two flow connections? something simular to the worcester system boiler integeral 3way valve but for 2 heating zones.

either way whats it got to do with gas safe if the correct zones are installed? this is a building control issue?

 

[dancinplumba]

many do, usually to dhw cyl tho, wiessmann i think mebe cud be adapted ?

 

[AWheating]

the requirements was none , now i think of it the company i was subbing for could face a massive bile for this ,i was doing install under there instruction not my contract work ,so I think i am safe

It will possibly depend on the contract dates. For example i am currently working on three sites, 2 gained planning permission before regs changed and 1 after. On the 2 before the change we are fitting one zone, on the 1 after we are having to fit 2 zones.

So it depends when planning permission and contractual start dates were agreed.

 

[Mbear]

Thanks for replay , but how would you wire them up ? Could any one help here ? To me this will be a s plan

Just wire it the same as u would if zoning a hw cyl to a combi sys. Doddle


When did this come into force? Is it uk wide or England only?

 

[Mbear]

http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/cache/file/23/changes-to-part-l-affecting-new-heating-systems.pdf

i wonder how long its going to take one of the boiler manufactures to make a combi with two flow connections? something simular to the worcester system boiler integeral 3way valve but for 2 heating zones.

either way whats it got to do with gas safe if the correct zones are installed? this is a building control issue?

No need for that boiler to have been developed/designed. There's already ways to do this and it's simple. Manufacturers taking advantage of this new rule, ridiculous

 

[tamz]

The gsr guy was talking out his rse regarding NCS. It has nothing to do with gas (or them) so can't be classified as such. It is a building regs thing.
You also can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. What do you do already if the cust won't pay for trv's or a basic room stat.......note it on your paperwork.

Easiest way to zone an existing system is with a Honeywell HR80 and a CM67. About £130 for the kit for 1 room and fitted in 20 minutes.
New build is different and will have to be zoned and best and cheapest with zone valves.

Stan
Use the orange and grey wires of the valves connected to the stat terminals of the combi. They are volt free.
PM me if you want a diagram.

 

[AmritPedersen]

Thing is, I've fitted quite a few 4-pipe weather compensated boilers & without fitting low loss headers, I can't see an effective way of zoning.

Any ideas?

 

[sheff paul]

The gsr guy was talking out his rse regarding NCS. It has nothing to do with gas (or them) so can't be classified as such. It is a building regs thing.
You also can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. What do you do already if the cust won't pay for trv's or a basic room stat.......note it on your paperwork.

Easiest way to zone an existing system is with a Honeywell HR80 and a CM67. About £130 for the kit for 1 room and fitted in 20 minutes.
New build is different and will have to be zoned and best and cheapest with zone valves.

Stan
Use the orange and grey wires of the valves connected to the stat terminals of the combi. They are volt free.
PM me if you want a diagram.

I think you are right. one of the plumbers i know did a survey on a heating a few years ago in the boom,as the customers were buying a house.he just checked it out for safety,just a combi 8 rads wrote a quick report on it nothing too technical,noted it had no room stat fitted,the heating was only 3 years old so working spot on .The vendors laywers picked up on this,as the system was relativly new ,rooms stats came in 2002 as law in building regs the original installer got hammered with a bill for 1200 quid to fit a wall stat,as the buyers wanted no visible cable ,decoration re instated,and would not let the original installer fit it .The original installer was gutted,but was told not to contest as it was against building regs no contest.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I think you are right. one of the plumbers i know did a survey on a heating a few years ago in the boom,as the customers were buying a house.he just checked it out for safety,just a combi 8 rads wrote a quick report on it nothing too technical,noted it had no room stat fitted,the heating was only 3 years old so working spot on .The vendors laywers picked up on this,as the system was relativly new ,rooms stats came in 2002 as law in building regs the original installer got hammered with a bill for 1200 quid to fit a wall stat,as the buyers wanted no visible cable ,decoration re instated,and would not let the original installer fit it .The original installer was gutted,but was told not to contest as it was against building regs no contest.

no good he could have just fit a wireless one and get a way with £100.00

 

[sheff paul]

no good he could have just fit a wireless one and get a way with £100.00

wasnt his choice mate,so he had no say ,it was in south east london so he may have been ''Goosed'' .The zoning rule like it or not is here to stay

 

[doitmyself]

If it's not already happened, the first manufacturer (probably Honeywell) to come out with a programmer specially designed to zone / s-plan a combi and meet the regs will make a killing.

It's the Honeywell Sundial RF2 Pack 5

 

[sheff paul]

It's the Honeywell Sundial RF2 Pack 5

nice one ,tryin one out next week hopefully

 

[SafeGasInstall]

nice one ,tryin one out next week hopefully

hope you win the job Paul

 

[sheff paul]

hope you win the job Paul

nice one SGI,if i dont get it xmas will be cancelled in our house..

 

[Barry98]

It's the Honeywell Sundial RF2 Pack 5

how much are these costing ?