Water Leak between meter and house?

[Rincewindwiz]

Hi All

I have had a problem with a leaking toilet (and consequently a horrendous water bill!) but that is now fixed. But still the water meter turns - very slowly - the last of 4 red digits increments once per minute. So I presume that is 1/1000 m3 per minute? (or 1.4m3 per day!) That is still a lot of water!

Even when I shut off the main inlet to the house, the water meter still turns at about that same rate

If I turn off the supply (next to the water meter) the digits stop turning.

So I presume this means a leak between the water meter and my main inlet. But there is no unusual sign of dampness anywhere around. (Water meter is outside the front of the house in some trees and the main inlet is round the back, a distance of about 40 feet.

How do I set about resolving this problem?

Thanks for any ideas?

 

[Ric2013]

I can't fault your logic, but I think you do have a leak.

If you are turning off your internal stopcock and the meter in the road is still turning, contact your water supplier and discuss. It could even be a leak between the new water meter and the old pipe between the water meter and your house if whoever fitted the meter didn't do it very well.

Even though it is only the water company's responsibility as far as the boundary, some water companies will mend or replace the pipe for you for free. Once you notify them, they may even write off some of the charge for the wasted water (as, if nothing else, it isn't going down their sewer).

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Well it all started off with the water company when my water bill jumped by a factor of 3. Some of that may have been due to a leaking toilet cistern but that is fixed now.

Their leaks man came out to prowl round the house. He said I had no leaks in the house (which I knew) and told me it was cheaper to take showers - not a lot of help !

Then the leaks technician appeared, turned off the stopcock in the road, noted that the meter was not turning and said I had a leak. That wasn't much help either.

So I'll try them again and see what happens.

Is 1 rev per minute on the smallest dial (4th red digit) really 1.4m3/day

 

[Ric2013]

Well, yes, now you've mended the leak inside your house they might be more helpful. If you explain it's on your supply pipe underground between the outside stopcock and the inside one... and, of course, if the leak is not on your property, then it's legally their responsibility anyway.

 

[rpm]

Dry around every toilet bowl in the house with tissue paper then lay single squares just under the rim and go back in 30mins to see if there are signs of a small leak.
Others who know boilers will be along soon with their ideas.

 

[Ric2013]

If he's shut off the main water inlet to the house, I think the OP's turned off the internal stopcock. So the leak must be in the supply or communication pipe, not in the house?

 

[rpm]

Withdrawn.

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Thanks to all.

Did a 'similar to the tissue paper' thingy and identified a toilet that dribbles very slightly.

Would have found it sooner but internal stopcock was very stiff and the original attempts to close it were clearly unsuccessful. Pliers and WD40 have saved the day!

Impressed with how sensitive the water meter is.

 

[Chuck]

But still the water meter turns - very slowly - the last of 4 red digits increments once per minute. So I presume that is 1/1000 m3 per minute? (or 1.4m3 per day!) That is still a lot of water!

The red digits are 'after the decimal point' so the fourth one will be 1/10 000 m^3, or 100 ml per minute, i.e 0.14 m^3 / day.

The 'running toilet' problem is something we've imported from the USA with their 'flapper valves'. I prefer an old fashioned, honest to goodness, British standard syphon so when there's a problem a dripping overflow alerts you.

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Thanks. Decimal places were never my strong point!
Problem does seem to be the flapper. Rather oddly the cistern leaks into the bowl while filling up but, once full, seems to stop leaking altogether.

Tomorrow will involve a trip to the local plumbing shop to see if I can get a replacement

 

[Ric2013]

Rather oddly the cistern leaks into the bowl while filling up but, once full, seems to stop leaking altogether.

Then this doesn't explain the meter turning the rest of the time.

 

[Rincewindwiz]

No indeed.

However, since the original diagnosis, I have had the dual flush valve apart, cleaned and re-seated the washer and re-assembled it. Now it does not leak when cistern is full.

However, I dont like the "leaking when filling" and dont trust it not to start leaking again so will go and find a replacement

 

[Ric2013]

I clean my drop valve every few months too. Otherwise it leaks a couple of litres overnight.

But flappers are easy to change, so you might as well if you can find a suitable replacement. Not using those cistern blocks helps - most cistern component manufacturers void the warranty if such products are used. I think they dirty the seal, if nothing else.

 

[rpm]

Ric, my understanding is the chemicals in cistern blocks attack rubber.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Ric, my understanding is the chemicals in cistern blocks attack rubber.

spot on and they like eating plastic

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Well I spent a couple of hours pottering round various specialist plumbers shops in N London and all I got was "Hhhmmm - I've not seen one like that before".

So, anyone here recognise the make and /or suggest where I might get a flapper ? Or even a replacement flush valve?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

are you / is the toilet in the uk?

 

[Rincewindwiz]

Yes.
Watford, N of London

 

[ShaunCorbs]

very strange set up for the uk, you normally find that type of fill valve in other parts of the world eg usa etc

best option and quickest is get a plumber out / or if your capable to replace the internal parts, eg fill valve and flapper / siphon

 

[rpm]

Can't get on the computer due to long running update.
Goggle toilet spares
Flush valves

There are sites there with photos you can match too.

 

[Ric2013]

Yeah. Seen them before . Cheap and nasty, probably came with a very budget toilet.

Normal for them to overflow while filling - that's what the tube from the fill valve to the top of the internal overflow upsatnd pipe is for. Instead of the dribble down the side of an equilibrium valve, the US market likes to run the dribble straight down the overflow for some I've never understood.

You probably won't find parts very easily but let me know if you do - I just replace these when they go wrong.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yeah. Seen them before . Cheap and nasty, probably came with a very budget toilet.

Normal for them to overflow while filling - that's what the tube from the fill valve to the top of the internal overflow upsatnd pipe is for. Instead of the dribble down the side of an equilibrium valve, the US market likes to run the dribble straight down the overflow for some I've never understood.

You probably won't find parts very easily but let me know if you do - I just replace these when they go wrong.

its to refill the water/air gap which isnt needed on uk toilets

 

[Ric2013]

In the siphonic pans they use in the USA, or they have a trap between the cistern and pan in US?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

siphonic pans im sure of it

 

[Ric2013]

The ?silicone rubber seal on the outlet of that valve (I thought you had an actual flap valve) looks similar to the one fitted to the Wirquin Macdee 'Kayla' flush valve, which is also probably made in China and has UPC branding on the side. Try looking halfway up the white bit and I bet you'll find a UPC shield logo. May be the same size?

Ceramica is the brand of the ceramic bits, but most toilets don't have matching brand cistern components so you don't need to be that specific in your choice of replacement parts.