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Discuss where does a DIYer get there gas appliance parts? in the General DIY Plumbing Forum area at Plumbers Forums

Pongo

Gas Engineer
Messages
26
As a gas safe registered engineer (still waiting to join the closed forum) and quitenew to this forum, it has shocked me to see so many members not gsr saying they bought gas boiler parts and attempted some mickey DIY job on there boiler before running to this forum and expecting qualified gsr engineers to dig them out of a hole!

Where do they get the parts? Why dont they have to prove themselves gsr? Why does the hse tolerate this and what is the industry doing to prevent this?
 
most places will sell anyone gas parts, only certain companies ask foir your number,,
 
With Gas Safe (HSE) spending so much time and energy promoting the message of only gsr engineers to work on gas appliances, surely they should be looking at putting forward legislation on purchanse of parts!

When I had a gun I needed a licence, but I still by law had to present it to purchase ammunition. Whats the difference between a lethal firearm and a gas appliance that had a "numpty" DIY fix? Non they can both kill !!

(On my high horse tonight!)
 
Problem is in the wording it says a competent person ?
And then it goes on to say something like unless carrying out the work as a trade or business ?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
If there is no legislation to stop them I don't think it is the merchants job to police the stupidity of DIY dave.

True, it is not in the merchants interests to turn down sales, however there is taking the moral high ground as some do. You would not expect merchants to push for change, but surely some bodies within our industry should? Or should they?
 
HSE have no jurisdiction over private individuals.
Someone has to employed for them to be involved.

If the HSE did have such powers then No-one would be repairing their own car, cleaning their own windows, carrying out anything that at the moment is classed as DIY etc, etc, unless they had specific qualifications in that field.
 
The problem is the rules say "you must be registered with gas safe to "work" on a gas appliance". there is no legislation on buying them!!

example 1. Mr gas man goes to job and boiler needs a part, he asks his wife to get part!! She is not gas safe but he is!!
example 2. Mr Gas man is doing a power flush, half way through it is found that the boiler also needs a new sensor, gas man cant leave power flush, can customer go and get part?
example 3. Mr gas man goes on-line and orders part, how do they check Gas safe at 10pm at night? when business is shut? If their competitor requires no accreditation then they will loose out on the business
example 4. customer buys a replacement frost stat, although it is connected inside boiler, there is also external wiring so is this against the regs or not?
example 5. It is illegal to grow cannabis, yet you can buy everything you need including seeds and it is not a criminal offence, you can even turn around and say "i'm going to grow plants" and have nothing done to you, until you start growing the plants.

So its not the rules that need to change, its society!! we do not accept guns so we ask for licenses, we do accept bodge jobs and cutting corners so its ok to play with your own boiler!!
 
It would be difficult to enforce. Gas safe say that noone should be working on a gas appliance, does that mean that Mr joe bloggs cant swap a thermister over, or replace a pump in a combi ? Ppl used to assume that it referred to breaking a gas joint.
 
I have been thinking about this issue, and have discussed it endlessly over nearly 30 years.

There are three basic factors here:

Enforceability
Equivalences
Proportionality

Enforceability is a problem for several reasons. The biggest one are that the majority of the sales of gas appliances are not to registered installers, but are still perfectly legitimate. They are either sales down the supply chain (ie, Manufacturer > Distributor > Merchant) or sales to organisations who quite reasonably want to purchase the materials, despite having no intention of fitting them illegally. A large proportion of our sales are to Councils, HAs, Universities, MOD establishments and a whole range of other public and private non-GSR organisations. There is also the issue of whether a particular item is a "gas product" or not. Lots of things are dual purpose.

Equivalence presents another issue. If we seek such protection for the sale of items related to our industry, we must expect other industries to make similar arguments for equally draconian regulation. So sorry, you can't wire your own plug, maintain your own car, mend your own roof, or even use your own sex-toys! Poorly maintained cars kill FAR more people than poorly maintained gas appliances, and more people are hurt doing DIY up ladders on their own house than are affected by CO poisoning. Hospital A&E departments regularly have to remove objects from orifices in which they have no place being, and this would never happen if they were only sold to competent sex-workers.

Finally, we have proportionality. Starting from the point that "its a free country", as a society we accept a range of limits on our freedom for the collective good. We accept quite stringent limits on things like the practice of medicine, ownership of firearms or explosives because of the high likelihood of frequent unpleasant consequences if we don't. Moving down the chain of potential risk, we regulate bus and truck drivers more than car drivers because the consequences of their failures are greater.

At the bottom of the regulatory pyramid are the activities that merely require you to be a certain age, and consenting - like drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex or joining the armed forces. They key to this is proportionality - the degree of regulation is proportionate to the frequency and severity of the harm that would ensue in the absence of regulation. Increasing the level of regulation on the gas appliance market would simply be disproportionate - the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

And before someone comes out with the old argument "surely its worth it, if just a single life is saved...?" Nope. On that basis we would have a speed limit on all roads of 20mph which would pretty much eliminate road deaths. But the cost is unacceptably high.

So, much as I understand the sentiment, I absolutely don't support legal limits on the sale of gas appliances. Or electrical fittings. Or car parts. Or ladders.

Or sex toys.

:)

I should add that we don't sell anything to DIYers. However, assuming a customer is a genuine tradesman, we also don't try to act as the industry busybody or policeman. Having said that, all our branch managers have a standing instruction to refuse to sell ANY product if they are doubtful about safety, and they will always have my backing if they choose to exercise that discretion.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is like the motorhome and caravan industry you do not have to be gas safe to work on these but how come ?
You have to have a gsr guy in your house but go away for the weekend in your caravan and a guy with a days course can sign your caravan off as being safe ????????
 
Chris this is his most recent purchases were low valve
f0aa51666449daddf1bd06ca00a513d8.jpg
f459def1d07146fec539653a8a089090.jpg
f81872af17efc8284808db1d833aab88.jpg


His account was stopped because he clicked buy it now 125 times on this item... He must have been excited
ba310e778b43e7a51418e33f6585aa4b.jpg
 
I have been thinking about this issue, and have discussed it endlessly over nearly 30 years.

There are three basic factors here:

Enforceability
Equivalences
Proportionality

Enforceability is a problem for several reasons. The biggest one are that the majority of the sales of gas appliances are not to registered installers, but are still perfectly legitimate. They are either sales down the supply chain (ie, Manufacturer > Distributor > Merchant) or sales to organisations who quite reasonably want to purchase the materials, despite having no intention of fitting them illegally. A large proportion of our sales are to Councils, HAs, Universities, MOD establishments and a whole range of other public and private non-GSR organisations. There is also the issue of whether a particular item is a "gas product" or not. Lots of things are dual purpose.

Equivalence presents another issue. If we seek such protection for the sale of items related to our industry, we must expect other industries to make similar arguments for equally draconian regulation. So sorry, you can't wire your own plug, maintain your own car, mend your own roof, or even use your own sex-toys! Poorly maintained cars kill FAR more people than poorly maintained gas appliances, and more people are hurt doing DIY up ladders on their own house than are affected by CO poisoning. Hospital A&E departments regularly have to remove objects from orifices in which they have no place being, and this would never happen if they were only sold to competent sex-workers.

Finally, we have proportionality. Starting from the point that "its a free country", as a society we accept a range of limits on our freedom for the collective good. We accept quite stringent limits on things like the practice of medicine, ownership of firearms or explosives because of the high likelihood of frequent unpleasant consequences if we don't. Moving down the chain of potential risk, we regulate bus and truck drivers more than car drivers because the consequences of their failures are greater.

At the bottom of the regulatory pyramid are the activities that merely require you to be a certain age, and consenting - like drinking alcohol, smoking, having sex or joining the armed forces. They key to this is proportionality - the degree of regulation is proportionate to the frequency and severity of the harm that would ensue in the absence of regulation. Increasing the level of regulation on the gas appliance market would simply be disproportionate - the benefits do not outweigh the costs.

And before someone comes out with the old argument "surely its worth it, if just a single life is saved...?" Nope. On that basis we would have a speed limit on all roads of 20mph which would pretty much eliminate road deaths. But the cost is unacceptably high.

So, much as I understand the sentiment, I absolutely don't support legal limits on the sale of gas appliances. Or electrical fittings. Or car parts. Or ladders.

Or sex toys.

:)

I should add that we don't sell anything to DIYers. However, assuming a customer is a genuine tradesman, we also don't try to act as the industry busybody or policeman. Having said that, all our branch managers have a standing instruction to refuse to sell ANY product if they are doubtful about safety, and they will always have my backing if they choose to exercise that discretion.

Tat is the post of the century ..... End of........
 
It is like the motorhome and caravan industry you do not have to be gas safe to work on these but how come ?
You have to have a gsr guy in your house but go away for the weekend in your caravan and a guy with a days course can sign your caravan off as being safe ????????

You're supposed to be gas safe to work on caravans and motorhomes. That's why I had to sit my LAV ticket.
 

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