Make sure there is not a uncontrolled by pass
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happyflyer
SafeGasInstaller,
I have a bit of kit that sits on the pipe and measure the flow inside, I will spot the uncontrolled or controlled bypass in a flash, I don't want to worry about me either, I have been in the trade for the 55 years and as long as the Good Lord doesn't take me in my sleep before I go to site next week, I will sort the plumber from hell out, be assured, trust me I am a real plumber!!!:35:
BTW I have heard they are going to officially make plumbing a trade next week :lol:
Anyway do any of you know when plastic tube was first used for minibore central heating???
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tommydiehard
Jesus this is like a plumbers version of Eastenders... Loving it
Have you been back yet Happyflyer? If not when?
Just to chuck my 2 pennies piece. When that plumber left did he jump in a van or ride off into the sunset!!!!
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happyflyer
Tommy
Me as done, put the old trusty test kit on and found the water flow was too low, lots of other things need to be put right boiler in the roof space, with two zone valves pipe to valves go up higher than boiler so boiler is not the highest part of the system so auto air vent in boiler not much use, got plumber back, programmed boiler to run pump at full speed, twas only running at half, closed down ABV and got water flow up to boiler recommended rate, all rads now (WOW) get hot except on on new index circuit, balancing now tight, main F/R in roof space rises up to where it drops down to Ist floor needs 2 AAV and pipe cutting shorter, needs two AAV on boiler end zone valve branches, you need to remember that the Valliant like others don't have a big pump on 20 Kpa this is not very much for long runs of 15 mm tube, If I was fitting a boiler which feeds heating and a Magaflow I would use a basic boiler without pump, you can then change the pump if you drop a clanger.
Tony
PS the plumber who did the job now calls me Dad and I will take him under my wing from now on, why because he listened, the day you stop learning is the day you die and that includes me.
Rock on Tommy
Me as done, put the old trusty test kit on and found the water flow was too low, lots of other things need to be put right boiler in the roof space, with two zone valves pipe to valves go up higher than boiler so boiler is not the highest part of the system so auto air vent in boiler not much use, got plumber back, programmed boiler to run pump at full speed, twas only running at half, closed down ABV and got water flow up to boiler recommended rate, all rads now (WOW) get hot except on on new index circuit, balancing now tight, main F/R in roof space rises up to where it drops down to Ist floor needs 2 AAV and pipe cutting shorter, needs two AAV on boiler end zone valve branches, you need to remember that the Valliant like others don't have a big pump on 20 Kpa this is not very much for long runs of 15 mm tube, If I was fitting a boiler which feeds heating and a Magaflow I would use a basic boiler without pump, you can then change the pump if you drop a clanger.
Tony
PS the plumber who did the job now calls me Dad and I will take him under my wing from now on, why because he listened, the day you stop learning is the day you die and that includes me.
Rock on Tommy
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tommydiehard
Fair play to him for not getting his back up.
I'm impressed too.
Whats the test kit? Sounds like a nice toy to play with.
I've never thought about fitting a boiler with out a pump. Every day is a school day and I've just learnt something.
I'm impressed too.
Whats the test kit? Sounds like a nice toy to play with.
I've never thought about fitting a boiler with out a pump. Every day is a school day and I've just learnt something.
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happyflyer
Rock on Tommy £2500.00 Portaflow a bit more now had it 4 years
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happyflyer
Tommy,
I didn't go well for about 15 mins he thought he new it all, after he saw the kit I had he saw the folly of his ways, seriously he
was a nice young chap would I would help any time, he took my card and said if I need any help can I call you, what do you think I said.
Help some when you can I might need it one day.
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tommydiehard
That is a niiiice bit of kit.
Do you do a lot of fault finding?
Bit to rich for little old me at he moment
Do you do a lot of fault finding?
Bit to rich for little old me at he moment
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tommydiehard
Hardest thing to do, to admitting to dropping a clanger. Especially when your a Plumber!!!!1
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happyflyer
I spend all my time now witnessing other people commissioning water and ventilation systems, I write software for Building Management system BMS, controlling commercial HVAC, I use to be in combustion also for 10 year, Hamworthy, British Gas and Oil Burners,(BGOB) or Selectos as it was know, I have worked on burners with 15 ft flames, mainly potato crisp machine they need lots of power to heat up the fat. I worked on the very first premixed gas burner, you use them every day in domestic boiler, I was part of that design when I was 30 I am nearly 70
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lucolivia
Hi again
Tony has been wonderful!! We can't thank him enough...
When I arrived home from work this evening.......All the radiators were hot!!! A miracle!
Tony....It's too hot now! ha ha ha...
:waving::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile:
Tony has been wonderful!! We can't thank him enough...
When I arrived home from work this evening.......All the radiators were hot!!! A miracle!
Tony....It's too hot now! ha ha ha...
:waving::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile::teeth_smile:
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lucolivia
It's very clever indeed...I learned a lot yesterday...I'm thinking of becoming Tony's apprentice!
Tony is an inspiration!
Tony is an inspiration!
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lucolivia
Absolutely. He was very grateful! :cheesy:
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JuliusG
Just a thought how are the rads pipe BBOE or TBOE. If they are TBOE then they could be piped back to front. causing only the top to heat.
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happyflyer
julesG,
No one these days pipes a radiators TBOE, do you know why, well it would be 750 mm of 15 mm tube for each rad and that would need do, anyway for what reason would any one want pipe TBOE, that is remnants of the old one pipe system, long forgotten here
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happyflyer
Thanks Jules,
Just another day at the office, I can't imaging helping anyone better, hope you have happier times ahead now the heating sorted.
Tony
Except by the guys who wrote BS EN442 for measuring the output of rads, who specify TBSE when measuring! There's only about 2% difference between the three connection methods and TBSE is the best.
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JuliusG
Happy flyer,
I'm was just making suggestions. I'm sorry but I disagree, TBOE is still the most efficient way to pipe a radiator regardless of whether it's a one pipe system or not. As it gives a better spread of heat across the radiator. Perhaps not seen in most modern homes but in industrial and commercial buildings are still occasionally piped this way. I piped radiators in college that way and I've worked in modern buildings piped that way. If you can increase heat output with piping arrangement, perhaps you can reduce heat emitter size?
I'm was just making suggestions. I'm sorry but I disagree, TBOE is still the most efficient way to pipe a radiator regardless of whether it's a one pipe system or not. As it gives a better spread of heat across the radiator. Perhaps not seen in most modern homes but in industrial and commercial buildings are still occasionally piped this way. I piped radiators in college that way and I've worked in modern buildings piped that way. If you can increase heat output with piping arrangement, perhaps you can reduce heat emitter size?
Isnt it tboe? Tbse causes the heat to run down one side and not circulate within the rad.
tboe causes it to run across
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JuliusG
I agree with you 1King55, I was always told that TBOE had the highest efficiency, I would say that TBSE would have the least of the three.
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happyflyer
You chaps are right experiments show that there is approx 2% better output if you don't use BBOE, but pray tell who does have a pipe running up the side of a radiator to the valve, another point if you do this and add a thermostatic valve the heat convected up from the stand pipe will prematurely shut down the valve, see if you can find a glossy rad brochure with TBOE connections.
Tony
Tony
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JuliusG
Incorrect happy flyer, you fit the thermostatic radiator valve horizontally for exactly that reason. The phial in the valve hangs clear of the pipe and so isn't tricked by the heat from the pipe. If you were to fit the valve vertically you would be correct (which is a common mistake). As to whole has a pipe up the side of their radiator, the answer to that would be people looking to get max efficiency out of their radiators.
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JuliusG
http://www.stelrad.com/uk/docs/elite_technical_info.pdf
Page marked 30 right, hand side, third paragraph down
Page marked 30 right, hand side, third paragraph down
Ive done the rads in my parents house tboe. For one its more efficiant and also easier to get the rad off.
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happyflyer
They are talking commercial, and you are right and forgot to add if you fit the TRV with the head horizontally you will negate the convention current up the pipe, another alternative is to use a remote capillary, but all this costly and messy, and they can get damage easily, commercially we tend to have a single zone valve controlled by a BMS and a room sensor, usually with a 3 Deg C adjust band 1.5 up and 1.5 down from agreed set points.
Owning and operating commercial HVAC system is expensive and maintenance must be taken into consideration too, in a school there is now a tenancy not to install radiators with TRV, they get damaged and messed with, UFH is pride of place no one can fiddle and even quality bespoke dwellings do use radiators.
I have designed 6 bespoke house in the past 10 years and not one radiator anywhere, the spec building will take some time to catch up but I think they will.
We have in recent years seen power sockets lift up higher, you could put the rad valve TBOE so people don't need to bend down, I have electronic rad valves on my system, don't need to bend down, once they are set you never need to adjust them again, extremely accurate temp control, they even make wireless TRV and the World moves on, as for 2% extra output using TBOE we will need the tweak the ABV or use the next size boiler up one. :bigcry:
Tony
Owning and operating commercial HVAC system is expensive and maintenance must be taken into consideration too, in a school there is now a tenancy not to install radiators with TRV, they get damaged and messed with, UFH is pride of place no one can fiddle and even quality bespoke dwellings do use radiators.
I have designed 6 bespoke house in the past 10 years and not one radiator anywhere, the spec building will take some time to catch up but I think they will.
We have in recent years seen power sockets lift up higher, you could put the rad valve TBOE so people don't need to bend down, I have electronic rad valves on my system, don't need to bend down, once they are set you never need to adjust them again, extremely accurate temp control, they even make wireless TRV and the World moves on, as for 2% extra output using TBOE we will need the tweak the ABV or use the next size boiler up one. :bigcry:
Tony
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