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JonM
Haha, I like that! I've had to turn down a few jobs recently because of a bad feeling about the customer. Some people you know are gonna try and stitch you up!
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Discuss difficult customer in the Plumbing Jobs | The Job-board area at Plumbers Forums
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Haha, I like that! I've had to turn down a few jobs recently because of a bad feeling about the customer. Some people you know are gonna try and stitch you up!
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iain
The truth is the customer and his wife are really very nice people who, after many a balls up and while hemorraging money, have come to their wits end by the whole lenghty building process. the buck has to stop somewhere and it was easy for them to stop it with me rather than the builder who has created a number of problems for them, myself, the sparky ,the plasterers etc, but is still needed on site to complete the work. incidentely, i won the plumbing after the builder had given his own quote. I feel really bad for them, but i have a family to feed too, one i didn't get to see while spending weekends there, and the damage, the time taken and the goalposts moved throughout, all seem to lie at the feet of the builder. i'm not going to be his scapegoat.
Why were you only working on evenings and weekends Iain?
Are you a self employed plumber or do you work for someone during the week?
All I know is I wouldn't dare enter a customers house without public liability insurance.
What does for missus think of this?
Are you a self employed plumber or do you work for someone during the week?
All I know is I wouldn't dare enter a customers house without public liability insurance.
What does for missus think of this?
The customer has taken it upon himself (on the builders advice) to test something incorrectly, and between them they've caused substantial damage - My view is it's clearly not down to you & they've got a bloody cheek expecting you to pay.
I agree with what others have said, and would go the small claims court route.
I find most people pay up after they get a letter giving them 7 days to pay before a claim is submitted.
Don't give in & good luck
Blod
I agree with what others have said, and would go the small claims court route.
I find most people pay up after they get a letter giving them 7 days to pay before a claim is submitted.
Don't give in & good luck
Blod
I think that your customer probably knows that it his own fault, but is trying it on.
We all know that it is not your fault, so there is no reason why you shouldn't be paid. Show them proof that you tested it according to reg's.
You need to pursue the customer for your money, eventually they will give in and perhaps then try and blame it on the builder or someone else, who cares you'll have had your money by then.
We all know that it is not your fault, so there is no reason why you shouldn't be paid. Show them proof that you tested it according to reg's.
You need to pursue the customer for your money, eventually they will give in and perhaps then try and blame it on the builder or someone else, who cares you'll have had your money by then.
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mooreofdevizes
Even if he is paying cash issue him with an invoice stating it is to be paid within 7 days if he doesn't pay within the time period stated issue him with a reminder letter then a formal demand letter. The letters usually work as they have been written by solicitors you just fill in the blanks. If no response from the letters take him to the small claims court it only costs £100 and you can do it online.
I would get a copy of the test procedure for soil pipes as you will need it if it gets to court.
If you want a copy of the legal letter let me know and I will email it to you.
Times are hard enough without getting ripped off by dodgy customers.
I would get a copy of the test procedure for soil pipes as you will need it if it gets to court.
If you want a copy of the legal letter let me know and I will email it to you.
Times are hard enough without getting ripped off by dodgy customers.
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Puddle
Am I missing something here, he filled through flushing w/c ,presume shower on same floor as shower or if below did they cut and cap off, if shower on same floor pressure not that great on joint or amount of fresh water that came out of joint, if it gave way, were did they get £ 700 worth of damage from, have they not let you inspect job
Nice people ? all sounds strange to me
On cash in hand job as you have not received ought, it is'nt yet so nobody can say you were not going to declare it, which of course you were,as said issue a invoice tommorrow
Do not sit back and take this business is business and as you say you have a family to keep, it will cause more damage to your street cred in a small community sitting back and accepting this than it will by kicking up a fuss and protesting your innocence ,if the builder is a pain and messes tradesmen and customers off, you may be surprised by the support you find
Nice people ? all sounds strange to me
On cash in hand job as you have not received ought, it is'nt yet so nobody can say you were not going to declare it, which of course you were,as said issue a invoice tommorrow
Do not sit back and take this business is business and as you say you have a family to keep, it will cause more damage to your street cred in a small community sitting back and accepting this than it will by kicking up a fuss and protesting your innocence ,if the builder is a pain and messes tradesmen and customers off, you may be surprised by the support you find
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When I was at college, many moons ago, my lecturer impressed on us never to be tempted to test a stack by filling with water. This can result in a lot of weight hanging off the side of a building. Only a few clips to support it all! The regulations state only using a manometer.
Don't let the 'cash job' angle cloud the issue. Just because your customer intended handing over readies, doesn't mean he knows or had proof that the readies were going straight into your pocket. He owes you the money. Issue an invoice if you want.
Get a building control officer along for a site meeting. This will show the builder up for the idiot that he is, and mean that the customer has no excuses for witholding payment.
Don't let the 'cash job' angle cloud the issue. Just because your customer intended handing over readies, doesn't mean he knows or had proof that the readies were going straight into your pocket. He owes you the money. Issue an invoice if you want.
Get a building control officer along for a site meeting. This will show the builder up for the idiot that he is, and mean that the customer has no excuses for witholding payment.
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tamz
Here is my take on this .......i may be wrong as i am just interpreting what has been said.
Iain is doing this work at the weekends as a homer/ foreigner /sidey whatever you want to call it. On work of this sort if they don't/won't pay there is not much can be done other than a bit violence. It still won't get you paid but at least you feel a bit better.
He air tested the pipework which seemed fine then bawbag the builder decides to give it a water test.
Now a water test is a legitimate test for below ground drainage and can be done internal but the pipework needs to be supported mainly for the weight.
Anyone who has done new build will have flooded the drains at some point to find a leak. An upstairs boss, if it was fitted correctly, would have held no problem as there is little pressure on it.
However. The builder had no right to do this test, especially when you were not present so you cannot be held liable for something you did not cause. Also as the build was at first fix stage who was to say it was ready to test other than you. Make this point strongly to the customer and pass the blame back to the builder. The damaged ceiling could probably be fixed for under £100.
If you are thinking violence start with the builder and make his life a misery for the next year or so until you feel you get your moneys worth.
Otherwise put it down to experience and don't get involved with builders. They are generally......... well i better not say anymore
Iain is doing this work at the weekends as a homer/ foreigner /sidey whatever you want to call it. On work of this sort if they don't/won't pay there is not much can be done other than a bit violence. It still won't get you paid but at least you feel a bit better.
He air tested the pipework which seemed fine then bawbag the builder decides to give it a water test.
Now a water test is a legitimate test for below ground drainage and can be done internal but the pipework needs to be supported mainly for the weight.
Anyone who has done new build will have flooded the drains at some point to find a leak. An upstairs boss, if it was fitted correctly, would have held no problem as there is little pressure on it.
However. The builder had no right to do this test, especially when you were not present so you cannot be held liable for something you did not cause. Also as the build was at first fix stage who was to say it was ready to test other than you. Make this point strongly to the customer and pass the blame back to the builder. The damaged ceiling could probably be fixed for under £100.
If you are thinking violence start with the builder and make his life a misery for the next year or so until you feel you get your moneys worth.
Otherwise put it down to experience and don't get involved with builders. They are generally......... well i better not say anymore
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B
Billy Bob Bob
its simple if he does not pay have his testicles removed
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Puddle
Must admit ,I never work for builders,always direct to customer(lost to much money in my younger days )which is what happened here,can not see what the builder was doing getting involved
)which is what happened here,can not see what the builder was doing getting involved
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tamz
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easyt
When I was in my twenties I did quite a few foreigners and I used to declare a good portion of what I earned (not the gifts). But I used to pay my wife (who was not working) the full amount of her tax allowance to keep my books and act as secretary. This meant I was able to stand my ground. On one occasion I was organising work in rented houses. I supervised the works (before my main employment at lunch times odd drop ins whilst passing on firms business after work odd half days etc.) I had a young guy chase out walls, I ran cabling and organised a sparks and there was a builder working. On one property I refused to pay the builder until he cleared up his mess. He told me I couldn't do that and if I did he would report me to the tax people. I told him to go spin. He finally cleaned up and got paid in full.
The point of the story is he did report me. I know because I had a meeting with the tax inspector a couple of weeks and we were on good terms. We had a laugh about it and he said he couldn't tell me who it was but they were now considering investigating the person. I said if it was Mr **** . He has worked for me recently on these dates and was paid this much. A month or two later the builder was after my blood because it was going to cost him dear and the IR were demanding details of his work for the previous 7 years and had made a ridiculously high assessment to put pressure on him. I almost felt sorry for him.
The point is if you do foreigners and conceal it from the tax man you cant afford to upset people. If you are more honest you cam.
The point of the story is he did report me. I know because I had a meeting with the tax inspector a couple of weeks and we were on good terms. We had a laugh about it and he said he couldn't tell me who it was but they were now considering investigating the person. I said if it was Mr **** . He has worked for me recently on these dates and was paid this much. A month or two later the builder was after my blood because it was going to cost him dear and the IR were demanding details of his work for the previous 7 years and had made a ridiculously high assessment to put pressure on him. I almost felt sorry for him.
The point is if you do foreigners and conceal it from the tax man you cant afford to upset people. If you are more honest you cam.
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Billy Bob Bob
a point well put to the op read this,learn from your experience and move on
If you are in business, your head has to come before your heart - whilst you might feel sorry for someone, it is another thing to take responsibility for their bad luck and cock ups!
If I remember back in the dim past when I was training, soil stacks are tested using air pressure/mano meters only - bet the building regs are clear about this.
Dont get pulled into feeling sorry for your customer, who seems to be on a run of bad luck - never trust 'bob the builder' he is almost always a numpty, and certainly doesn't know plumbing proceedure . . .
You will learn to spot them in advance, and steer well clear - or be doubly careful:
- People who are bad luck magnets (you will be clearing up their mess for them!)
- People who are 'high maintenance' (you have to figure the stress of working with them into your quote!)
- People who are dishonest (watch for the warning signs . . )
- People who are arsholes (if they are complaining before you even start, then beware)
My quoting policy is thus: if I even get a hint that you are one of the above, then I will add 30-50% on top of the quote . . .
A friend of mine, who has had 30 year in the trade has this theory:
1) if they dont take the job, then at least I have saved myself stress . . .
2) if they do take the job, then at least I am getting well paid - there is nothing worse than a nightmare job, that you are being paid peanuts for . . .
If i like the person, and trust them then I am more likely to give them a good quote!
Dont ever be blind to their shortcomings - man you need to be an expert in reading people to work in domestic plumbing, without getting ripped off!
If I remember back in the dim past when I was training, soil stacks are tested using air pressure/mano meters only - bet the building regs are clear about this.
Dont get pulled into feeling sorry for your customer, who seems to be on a run of bad luck - never trust 'bob the builder' he is almost always a numpty, and certainly doesn't know plumbing proceedure . . .
You will learn to spot them in advance, and steer well clear - or be doubly careful:
- People who are bad luck magnets (you will be clearing up their mess for them!)
- People who are 'high maintenance' (you have to figure the stress of working with them into your quote!)
- People who are dishonest (watch for the warning signs . . )
- People who are arsholes (if they are complaining before you even start, then beware)
My quoting policy is thus: if I even get a hint that you are one of the above, then I will add 30-50% on top of the quote . . .
A friend of mine, who has had 30 year in the trade has this theory:
1) if they dont take the job, then at least I have saved myself stress . . .
2) if they do take the job, then at least I am getting well paid - there is nothing worse than a nightmare job, that you are being paid peanuts for . . .
If i like the person, and trust them then I am more likely to give them a good quote!
Dont ever be blind to their shortcomings - man you need to be an expert in reading people to work in domestic plumbing, without getting ripped off!
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iain
i've not declared yet but i'm a new buisness and don't pay tax for the first 2 years anyway. i have records of everything i was paid to date, but never issued a formal invoice. the money doesn't worry me anywhere near as much as my reputation though.
there is a reason that soil stacks are tested with air, as most of the connections are made with push fit couplers.
Get a copy of the building regs, and sit down with the guy to talk it through - I would say it is the builders fault for suggesting to test in that way, and the customer for allowing it without the trained plumber who fitted it being onsite . . .
I personally would'nt have anything to do with it - and any insurance poilcy that you might have would not pay out, as the damage was cause by inappropiate actions of others, and not your work.
What reputation are you trying to save? If you think you are going to be able to work without disputes you have another thing coming. You can try and talk it through and come to a reasonable arrangement.
I usually tell my customers that they should not either take advice from, or have work done by builders as they are not qualified to do plumbing and electrical work, and neither do they have the knowhow to do it properly . . .
Bob the builder is the creation of the lazy public who cannot be bothered to deal with individual tradesmen who are experts in their fields - the builder is a glorified handyman!!
I even have a clause in my contract that covers this - in the event that the customer brings a third party in to 'rectify' my work, I will have no liability or further responisibilty to garentee the work - he should have asked you to look into carrying out these test yourself. As soon as the builder touched your work it became his responsibilty.
Get a copy of the building regs, and sit down with the guy to talk it through - I would say it is the builders fault for suggesting to test in that way, and the customer for allowing it without the trained plumber who fitted it being onsite . . .
I personally would'nt have anything to do with it - and any insurance poilcy that you might have would not pay out, as the damage was cause by inappropiate actions of others, and not your work.
What reputation are you trying to save? If you think you are going to be able to work without disputes you have another thing coming. You can try and talk it through and come to a reasonable arrangement.
I usually tell my customers that they should not either take advice from, or have work done by builders as they are not qualified to do plumbing and electrical work, and neither do they have the knowhow to do it properly . . .
Bob the builder is the creation of the lazy public who cannot be bothered to deal with individual tradesmen who are experts in their fields - the builder is a glorified handyman!!
I even have a clause in my contract that covers this - in the event that the customer brings a third party in to 'rectify' my work, I will have no liability or further responisibilty to garentee the work - he should have asked you to look into carrying out these test yourself. As soon as the builder touched your work it became his responsibilty.
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Whoever told you that was trying to get you in court with tax evasion.
you have an allowance like everyone else, you will still have to fill in a Self Assessment come Oct next year, and anything over your allowance is taxable, dont forget your Class 2 and 4 NIC. If youe VAT registered - remember they are the ONLY people who can break into your home without notice or warrant any time they like - so keep those books spot on!
If you need any help, I used to work in the Tax office on schedule D (old self employed section) and had many people investigated for evasion and its is a long painful process going through your 7 years of books. Although the fines are a lot lower these days and based on level of 'accidental or known evasion' its still not good to mention in public if cash is going through books or not.
Oh, and modern software will take about 2.5 seconds to search public forums like this for keywords linked to benefit and tax evasion.
Since starting property developing I always ask my trades for a cash price, I never ask where the cash is going, but a lot of people don't then give a cash price as It costs more to bank.
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johnmcginty
All my materials are mine until paid for in full, if he dont pay up just go round and collect all your copper and endfeed and yorkshire , and waste pipes and plaster and fittings etc
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mooreofdevizes
John, good advice about materials are yours until paid for in full. Be aware that you need the owners permission to go into their property to recover it.
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oldplumber
So you tell them youve popped in to do the final snagging bits, then whip out the boiler and leave it all capped off saftely with the meter capped etc, then bu**er off quickly. simples. Ask for payment to come back with boiler, cash only, then leave the boiler on the floor, after all youve fitted it once! Might get some stick, but youve got to try everything.
Other option is to use a company like silvermans, who specialise in debt recovery, costs you some £300 to register then the custard is responsible for their costs and they are very good at collecting, and they do it legally even tho some of their staff are built like king kong in a suit! http://www.danielssilverman.co.uk/
Other option is to use a company like silvermans, who specialise in debt recovery, costs you some £300 to register then the custard is responsible for their costs and they are very good at collecting, and they do it legally even tho some of their staff are built like king kong in a suit! http://www.danielssilverman.co.uk/
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End Feed
Stick to your guns and insist on payment. You tested to required pressure as per regs and he broke the system with his stupidity. Cash payment doesn't mean you weren't going to declare it to the tax man so don't let him think he's got you over a barrel because of cash payment.
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tamz
Not so easy to do in real life i'm afraid.
Actual true story.
A plumber mate of mine did a bathroom suite for a woman a few years back and she wouldn't pay up. She always had some excuse of this or that not right.
After repeated visits to check out and rectify any complaints which were non existant he told her to write every small item she was not happy with down and he would pop round and make sure he went through the lot until she was happy.
Turned up the next day with the boy, very pleasant exchanges and said right i better turn the water off and crack on with the list.
He took everything out except the bath as it was tiled in (took the taps and waste tho) and put the lot in the van. When done he went downstairs and spoke to the woman said that was him, and put the water back on. Must dash as i've just had an emergency call with water pouring through a ceiling. You just check it in your own time and i'll ring you later.
Never got to the end of the street when she was on the phone screaming blue murder. Told her she could keep the bath .
Had the police at him later that night, but as the materials were bought and paid for by him and no damage was caused they said it was a civil matter.
Had one lawyers letter which he ignored.
No money but plenty satisfaction.
I also used to know a couple of guys who wore crombies all the time Talking to them one night, happened to mention i had one cust who wouldn't pay me £600 and odd quid. They said they would buy the debt for £200 then it was then their problem. So i thinks £200 is better than nothing, ok.
I almost felt sorry for those people. Almost. It cost them a lot more than what they were due
I never took up their offers a second time.
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Yeah, I knew a character you could always sell a debt too. I never did it, but I know other tradesmen who did. I think it's a fairly dark practise, and I would never do it. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do it legally, take them to court and if you still end up without the money, at least you can look yourself in the eye.
We all get knocked eventually.
I had some pikey who bought a hair salon knock me years ago. Two of us fitted out his new salon, at an agreed hourly rate. When it came to paying, he insisted the hourly rate was for both of us, not each. I.e he wanted to pay 50% of the bill. He paid us some and after a chat, told us to come back for the rest the next day after he had been to the bank. The next day I recieved a phone call from a girl who was planning to work at the salon. She told me the guy was waiting with a bottle of battery acid to spray in my face when I walked in the door. Utter scumbag, I never did get my money. I know the girl wasn't lieing or in on it. I was tempted to make a call to the horrible debt collector guy, but I figure if you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
Oh coincidentially, the horrible debt collector guy is now in prison, it was in the local paper. He was a loan shark, pimp and human traffiker. Not the sort of person I would ever associate with, so I'm glad I didn't call him.
We all get knocked eventually.
I had some pikey who bought a hair salon knock me years ago. Two of us fitted out his new salon, at an agreed hourly rate. When it came to paying, he insisted the hourly rate was for both of us, not each. I.e he wanted to pay 50% of the bill. He paid us some and after a chat, told us to come back for the rest the next day after he had been to the bank. The next day I recieved a phone call from a girl who was planning to work at the salon. She told me the guy was waiting with a bottle of battery acid to spray in my face when I walked in the door. Utter scumbag, I never did get my money. I know the girl wasn't lieing or in on it. I was tempted to make a call to the horrible debt collector guy, but I figure if you lay down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
Oh coincidentially, the horrible debt collector guy is now in prison, it was in the local paper. He was a loan shark, pimp and human traffiker. Not the sort of person I would ever associate with, so I'm glad I didn't call him.
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Fair point well made Phil