Gas Rating dfe with no data plate?

[kirkgas]

I feel obligated to at least carry out a spillage as if it fails badly it is obviously ID and I was last engineer at it.

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

 

[GrahamM]

I have seen enough fires by many manufactures to at least have a general idea where to take a basic spillage from the various formats.

This gives me a general indication, in the absence of MI's, in my professional opinion if the flue is at least drawing.
Bearing in mind I have no MI's to carry out a proper service- this is only a basic safety check and if in my professional opinion the spill is ok I will leave the fire as AR and inform customer that MI's will need to be procured for full service to be carried out.

In my opinion this is the very least that should be done.

 

[dancinplumba]

where MUST you do a spillage test on a ?? make and ?? model, without MI you cannot do a spillage test, and i can quote the generic statement as well as anyone, but it says "unless MI says otherwise", ok a DFE will be at the flue box/catchment space front, but might be at a specific position, so again no MI = no HI, coal placement or spillage for me, so it has to be AR with the advice not to use it, therefore allowing the customer to make an informed judgement call which they can be held liable for

once again 100% with kirkgas on this

 

[diamondgas]

Anyone heard of a DGI label? Don't Get Involved! Personally I take each circumstance on its merits; age of appliance, observation of its surroundings and the customer using it or not as the case may be. In other words give it a visual! Maybe familiarity breeds contempt in my case *shrug* I still struggle to get my head around turning something off because of my lack of knowledge though? These incidences are few and far between in my experience so will not dwell to much TBH ... I do not disagree with you regards At Risking being the safest approach to adopt but what is the appliance at risk of ... An LFE that needs removing to inspect catchment space etc I can understand AR, but a DGF that sits in front of a chair brick and an open Chimney sucking like a Dyson ... hmmmm!

 

[dancinplumba]

liking sig DG

 

[glenno1]

IMO on this the engineer at the scene has to leave that property and occupants safe by law so if he suspects it to be unsafe he should carry out whatever work to make safe.So if he has no paper work to go by he may have to cap off

 

[GrahamM]

IMO on this the engineer at the scene has to leave that property and occupants safe by law so if he suspects it to be unsafe he should carry out whatever work to make safe.So if he has no paper work to go by he may have to cap off

I agree with you to a point.

I'm with you on the duty of care.

But if you suspect something is not correct or have no way to confirm it is correct, you can only advise of the risk and leave it AR.

You cannot ID an appliance because you suspect it may be unsafe. Only if you know it is unsafe can you cut & cap.

If you suspect it may be unsafe it is AR.

 

[GQuigley67]

i would AR it myself, when working on Scottish Gas contract they want you to AR every appliance that doesnt have MIs or Data Badge and do spillage tests on every fire. I wouldnt AR it myself if it had a data badge as i could confirm it was working safely but with neither I would feel better classing it as AR. We are only turning off appliance and attaching label, nothing stopping customer from turning appliance back on

 

[kirkgas]

Anyone heard of a DGI label? Don't Get Involved! Personally I take each circumstance on its merits; age of appliance, observation of its surroundings and the customer using it or not as the case may be. In other words give it a visual! Maybe familiarity breeds contempt in my case *shrug* I still struggle to get my head around turning something off because of my lack of knowledge though? These incidences are few and far between in my experience so will not dwell to much TBH ... I do not disagree with you regards At Risking being the safest approach to adopt but what is the appliance at risk of ... An LFE that needs removing to inspect catchment space etc I can understand AR, but a DGF that sits in front of a chair brick and an open Chimney sucking like a Dyson ... hmmmm!

brilliant DGI LABEL, i think there is a market there for printing some of them up

 

[kirkgas]

there is a specific fire in an assessment room ( i cant remember the actual make/model, but doesnt matter) which requires a spillage test to be carried out 50mm from the right hand side of the canopy, without reading the MI and using generic knowledge and experience everyone would run a smoke match along the front of the canopy, this would be wrong and could lead to a wrong statement being made about its safety, and has caught out plenty of guys doing their ACS

 

[AmritPedersen]

So you'd cap off a pensioners only source of heat in the middle of winter because you are not sure of it's operating burner pressure/gas rate and the custard hasn't got the mi's, poor old dear doesn't know where she's put them! She's flustered...! And your gungho!

Please folks lets get real By all means explain to your customer that you do not feel safe working on the appliance and cannot carry out work on the appliance until you gain more info... Put the onus on the custard or Landlord end of day! However IMHO we have no right to turn an appliance off because WE do not have the knowledge or experience to work on it! You give it a visual and inform the responsible person that you are unable to do anything further because of limited knowledge you have or available material to do your job safely!!

Well diamongas, a fair point about removing someone's sole source of heat. However, I usually come across these dfe's when they're decorative & supplementary. That's why I agree with the others who say its dodgy to work on them. Not just for your professional safety, but your clients'.

 

[fewkes]

as far as i believe, if there are no MI's or date plate there is no way to confirm your readings and certainly no way to confirm the coals are installed correctly(they may have been rong before you attended), this would lead me to leave the fire as AR, explain the risks to the customer and its then their decision to use the fire or not. but your arse is covered.

 

[combo]

God knows what a member of the public thinks when reading this thread....sorry to bring it back :death:

 

[combo]

The reason I posted on this thread was because I was wondering whether we ever got to bottom of working on an appliance without manufacturers instructions.....Can you or can't you ?? I see so many posts on this forum where there never seems to be a 'definite' answer, which I find bizarre in a industry so heavily ( !!!! ) regulated.

 

[acecharly]

My tutor may have been wrong after 30 years in the trade but isn't the first thing you do before service or fitting a gas fire .....read the MI.

 

[combo]

It's a good job that tenants and customers always have a copy of their MI's to hand then, otherwise there'd be an awful lot of illegal work going on.

 

[Ermintrude]

Or you have the info already? Boy Scouts always be prepared!

 

[combo]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

 

[Ermintrude]

Hummmmmm

 

[Ray Stafford]

Why don't they just have a clear regulation i.e Reg ( ? ) You must not work on an appliance without appropriate manufacturers instructions....

You have to watch out for the unintended consequences.

What would happen to a lot of old appliances? Would the customer have them replaced if the engineer refused to service them? Or would they just leave them, year after year, to deteriorate until lethal?

I suspect the latter.

 

[stevetheplumber]

im still of the opinion that the AR classification is a cop out passing the resposibility from trained professional to tennant/customer we have to AR anything that we cant service or inspect vailant flues without screws flues in flats where theres no access to the roof

 

[combo]

It's just ridiculous ! Its supposed to be a professional technical job i.e you use your skills and experience.....but you might a coal the wrong way round or be a few mm out on the specified spillage point, so you cant do it. Don't get me wrong, if the rule is - walk away without MI's, fine but they should be out making it absolutely clear and enforcing it.

 

[village idiot]

Instead of going round sticking an AR label on appliances you do not have access to MI's to, why not invest in a decent phone, laptop etc and pay a subscription or similar so you can download MIs wherever you find yourself? Some sites provide them for free, some sites you have to register.

Personally, I avoid turning to service an appliance ''blindly''. I ask the customer questions in advance of attending and try and find out if the have the MI? If not, can they give me any more information? Make, Model of appliance? If they can, then I download the MI in advance of attending and familiarise myself with whatever areas I will need to deal with. When at property, I can always just crosscheck any areas on the downloaded MI on my iPhone. If happen to attend and find it's an appliance I have no access to MI, I inform custard the info is relevant, then just look over boiler and make good my exit. I will not feel comfy capping up an old deer just because it is ''bread & butter''.

 

[combo]

I do have a lappy and there's some fires on there ( ill have to try and update ). Im hoping to get back into servicing//CP12's soon ( agency work ) , Im just wondering what these ppl are gonna say if your refusing to service appliances.

 

[Ermintrude]

They will ask you why you haven't got a copy