Hot water from Valliant Boiler

[chris watkins]

Of course it’s fixable and if it worked before then it should again. But concerned with the installer swapping pipes over

& B.Gas who can't sort out simple problems.

 

[Margaret T]

& B.Gas who can't sort out simple problems.

British gas couldnt find the issue?

 

[Brambles]

Margaret

Was the contract to instal the boiler and hive with British Gas?

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret

Was the contract to instal the boiler and hive with British Gas?

No. The installer was obtained from Valiant website [Turn your guarantee up to 10].

I opted for the 10 years guarantee.

 

[Brambles]

where are you based Margaret?

 

[Margaret T]

where are you based Margaret?

London

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

On the positive front, it is good that the original installer is actively engaged in the resolution. Irrespective of achieving success, at least he/ she has the commitment and is trying to resolve the issue.

Switching flow / return without sound logic (when the heating side is functioning ) is puzzling. I am assuming that he/she ( at the time of switching) has not relocated the magnetic filter ( which I recall is adjacent to the hot water cylinder) onto the “new” return, leaving the new boiler unprotected from debris flowing from the system back to the boiler? That is not the end of the world, but demonstrates poor thinking in the act of desperation

If you wish feel free to message me at [email protected]

If you are relatively close, I am happy to look at it for you - to give you a few pointers fir your installer to rectify the problem

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

On the positive front, it is good that the original installer is actively engaged in the resolution. Irrespective of achieving success, at least he/ she has the commitment and is trying to resolve the issue.

Switching flow / return without sound logic (when the heating side is functioning ) is puzzling. I am assuming that he/she ( at the time of switching) has not relocated the magnetic filter ( which I recall is adjacent to the hot water cylinder) onto the “new” return, leaving the new boiler unprotected from debris flowing from the system back to the boiler? That is not the end of the world, but demonstrates poor thinking in the act of desperation

If you wish feel free to message me at [email protected]

If you are relatively close, I am happy to look at it for you - to give you a few pointers fir your installer to rectify the problem

Hello Brambles, the installer was also puzzled when he returned to look at the boiler and the Drayton valves. Also tested and looked at the air vent. Has this happened to anyone before about the HW reverse flowing? Never did we have this with the HW before, it was only after the boiler was changed that we did not have hot water. From above, the criss-cross would this be an issue? I haven't seen such a thing before.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

I cannot see why the installer has reversed the flow on on your system. The issue you have described is that the only problem you have is that you cannot run Hot water without have the Central Heating on.

My view is that either :

The control wiring between the two two port valves and the Hive interface is incorrect.
Or, the micro switch in the two port valve controlling hot water is not functioning ( I think you said that the synchronous motor was changed. The installer may have damaged the micro switch or dislodged the connection in the process.

The only reason to change the pipework configuration that I can think of, is if the installer has fitted the Hot Water two port valve downstream of the Central Heating two port valve. I have seen this before on new installations.

To conclude, to operate a condensing boiler for Hot water only is as simple as it gets, a boiler, two pipes, a valve and an indirect cylinder. Better still you know that the hydraulic circuit works, because it functions when the central heating is on. I would have expected the installer to operate the boiler in this mode upon first use before testing the central heating circuit.

Presumably the installer cleaned the existing central heating system before installing the new boiler? So should have a good understanding of the system pipework layout.

With respect to the crossovers, they should be removed or if deemed to be correct the magnetic filter should be reinstalled on the return immediately before the boiler.

In my view, the actions taken by your installer earlier this week are putting your boiler warranty at risk.

My view has not changed since your problem was first posted. It is not a difficult fix for a competent heating engineer or a plumber with a good knowledge of heating systems - and this is most properly trained experienced plumbers.

On a final point, don’t let him/her take up any more flooring / floor boards - that is just not needed to fix this.

Feel free to share this note with your installer - it may help to focus their mind in the fault finding process.

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

I cannot see why the installer has reversed the flow on on your system. The issue you have described is that the only problem you have is that you cannot run Hot water without have the Central Heating on.

My view is that either :

The control wiring between the two two port valves and the Hive interface is incorrect.
Or, the micro switch in the two port valve controlling hot water is not functioning ( I think you said that the synchronous motor was changed. The installer may have damaged the micro switch or dislodged the connection in the process.

The only reason to change the pipework configuration that I can think of, is if the installer has fitted the Hot Water two port valve downstream of the Central Heating two port valve. I have seen this before on new installations.

To conclude, to operate a condensing boiler for Hot water only is as simple as it gets, a boiler, two pipes, a valve and an indirect cylinder. Better still you know that the hydraulic circuit works, because it functions when the central heating is on. I would have expected the installer to operate the boiler in this mode upon first use before testing the central heating circuit.

Presumably the installer cleaned the existing central heating system before installing the new boiler? So should have a good understanding of the system pipework layout.

With respect to the crossovers, they should be removed or if deemed to be correct the magnetic filter should be reinstalled on the return immediately before the boiler.

In my view, the actions taken by your installer earlier this week are putting your boiler warranty at risk.

My view has not changed since your problem was first posted. It is not a difficult fix for a competent heating engineer or a plumber with a good knowledge of heating systems - and this is most properly trained experienced plumbers.

On a final point, don’t let him/her take up any more flooring / floor boards - that is just not needed to fix this.

Feel free to share this note with your installer - it may help to focus their mind in the fault finding process.

Thanks Brambles for your responses. Much appreciated and all others on here for your reply. Just wanted to rectify whatever the underlying issue.

Yes, he said he replaced a syncron motor on the heating valve. This was done in February 2019. The house had old radiators and boiler. I had changed the whole house radiators (x7) all new, new Valliant boiler + hive controller. In regards to the syncron motor, found it rather odd for them to change in consideration these were newly installed. We didn't have these Drayton valves at all before and not sure why it would need replacing on the 5th month if these were new?

On another note, you mentioned there is no need to lift floorboards, he mentioned that he might have to disconnect the blue HW cylinder and lift the flooring in the air cupboard and see the pipework there? Is this needed? British gas also said the same thing?

At present, I am waiting for his return ...

Thanks.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

I find this quite odd. Are you sure that the installer of the boiler was aGas Safe registered individual and that the installer of the system (if different) was a a credible plumber?

The issues you describe and the actions being taken just don’t seem credible to me.

On the basis that the boiler is performing properly, any reputable plumber should be able to diagnose (and probably fix) the problem with your hot water on site within 1 to 2 hours.

A good rule of thumb, is to diagnose the problem, think through the solution then get your tools out and implement it. Be very wary of people get their tools out before having thought through what the problem is

 

[Margaret T]

Margaret,

I find this quite odd. Are you sure that the installer of the boiler was aGas Safe registered individual and that the installer of the system (if different) was a a credible plumber?

The issues you describe and the actions being taken just don’t seem credible to me.

On the basis that the boiler is performing properly, any reputable plumber should be able to diagnose (and probably fix) the problem with your hot water on site within 1 to 2 hours.

A good rule of thumb, is to diagnose the problem, think through the solution then get your tools out and implement it. Be very wary of people get their tools out before having thought through what the problem is

Hello Brambles, he was obtained from Valiant website to have a valiant boiler installed, he is also on the gas safety register website.

Upon completion, initially, I did had to chase for the paperwork completion to obtain the 10-year guarantee and received this. (1) buildings regulation compliance gas safety certificate letter from vaillant; (2) buildings regulation certificate of compliance issued by vaillant; (3) Vaillant letter that my 10 years extended guaranteed.

I do recall when British Gas (BG) came on 24/04/2019 (was here for 2.5 hours), BG said might need to lift the flooring in the airing cupboard where the blue HW cylinder sits to see the pipe works but told me to contact the installer. I called for the installer and he came on 30/04/2019 checked the Drayton valves and the black airlock switch, having done the purge manually without using hive and lifting hallway floor boards to look for a T pipe or something, he then went to change the pipes in the kitchen from straight 2 straws to criss-cross. He then tried to test for HW and there was air sound splurging sound, he said the HW was still going in reverse flow. At the last resort, he said he still couldn't understand why the HW is reverse flowing that he then said may need to lift the flooring underneath the hot water cylinder tank in air cupboard.

At present, everything is left on running CH + HW, all radiators turned down and waiting for his return.

Hope this clarifies.
Thanks

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret, I see in your response to @Brambles that the heating SYNCHRON motor was changed, yet the issue could be the hot water one.

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret, I see in your response to @Brambles that the heating SYNCHRON motor was changed, yet the issue could be the hot water one.

Hello CMW1982, yes, I see on my very first OP on this forum that it was the heating synchron changed and the installer said that to me.

To note, he tried testing hot water by removing and not having the drayton cubes attached/connected to CH pipe and HW pipe. I recall that both B.Gas and himself held the HW drayton cube to their ears. Not sure what they listening to.

By the way, why would the CH Drayton synchron need changing if new and less than 6 months?

 

[Burger]

Hello CMW1982, yes, I see on my very first OP on this forum that it was the heating synchron changed and the installer said that to me.

To note, he tried testing hot water by removing and not having the drayton cubes attached/connected to CH pipe and HW pipe. I recall that both B.Gas and himself held the HW drayton cube to their ears. Not sure what they listening to.

By the way, why would the CH Drayton synchron need changing if new and less than 6 months?

I wouldn’t know on that as things fail for a reason be it poor quality or poor system conditions.

Regarding the listening, they may have been trying to hear the motor turning or even the microswitch.

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret, are you still in the same scenario?

I’ve just been studying your photo of the cylinder cupboard, and I could be wrong (I am tired)but want to clarify something that’s bugging me. Are you able to photograph the yellowed markups on photo more closely? I want to see if the chrome valve is open, and also where that 15mm pipe tees in. I’m trying to figure out I feel your flow and return are piped up wrong. The Magnaclean states flow of water one way, but it could be another way?

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret, are you still in the same scenario?

I’ve just been studying your photo of the cylinder cupboard, and I could be wrong (I am tired)but want to clarify something that’s bugging me. Are you able to photograph the yellowed markups on photo more closely? I want to see if the chrome valve is open, and also where that 15mm pipe tees in. I’m trying to figure out I feel your flow and return are piped up wrong. The Magnaclean states flow of water one way, but it could be another way?

View attachment 38466

Morning CBW1982, yes, I am still in the same scenario. Please see photograph markups more closely, (these were how they were situated (24/04/2019). The installer, he visited 30/04/2019 and said he will leave them off and they are not hanging on the pipework at present). Thanks a lot.

 

[Brambles]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

 

[Burger]

Morning Margaret, thanks for the photos. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but as @Brambles has said that looks like it’s been done unprofessionally, (but I think you knew that). It is fixable, but not sure how you go about trying to reclaim costs from your original installer, as if it were me I wouldn’t have him back. There is an isolation valve (chrome valve circled in my edited photo) turned off, and flow is either going backwards from magnetic filter (magnaclean) or the flow comes up to a closed off iso valve and through the return. Either way for this to function as it should then it needs sorting.

 

[Margaret T]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

Hello Brambles, thanks for the above. Just wanted to mention, in case I typed incorrect, I meant that the installer, he said he will leave the Drayton off and not attached to the pipework (it is dangling down and not 'clipped' onto the CH pipework). Hope this clarifies that part.

 

[Burger]

Hello Brambles, thanks for the above. Just wanted to mention, in case I typed incorrect, I meant that the installer, he said he will leave the Drayton off and not attached to the pipework (it is dangling down and not 'clipped' onto the CH pipework). Hope this clarifies that part.

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

 

[Margaret T]

If I read those photos correctly, the flow is being directed into the DHW tank through both the flow and return connections.

Boiler Flow being directed to the two two port valves (HW and CH) and the magnaclean! HW return connection connected to the Magnaclean on the flow side. Ie. Flow to flow on the HW circuit when the two port valve is opened.

Margaret, I cannot see that this installation has been plumbed in by anyone with basic plumbing or heating engineering experience.

If I include the work undertaken to switch flow and return in one if your earlier posts and your comment that the valve actuators have mbeen left disconnected - it has all the signs of the work being undertaken by someone with a very low level of understanding as to how an S plan system works.

You need a normal plumber to come in and instal the pipework in a conventional manner for an S plan system. Thereafter, to check the connections and commission the Nest controller.

The magnaclean is new and was installed with the new Vaillant boiler. We didn't have this before. Likewise, the 2x Drayton and hive controller all new. Would the criss-cross be an issue and can these be put back to straight straws? Regarding the lifting of floorboards, he said he was looking for 'T pipe' or 'T valve' (I dont fully recall which) but he said was looking for 'T something' which was why the floorboards were lifted and he wanted to find the pipes from the airing cupboard to the where the boiler is situated in the kitchen. I recall the pipework running along the floor (where flooring lifted) the "middle" pipework was hot.

 

[Aire]

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

View attachment 38483

The pic isn't clear but I believe the 15mm coming from the flow before the magna clean is just a bypass which is teed in to the top connection of the 22mm cylinder return.

 

[Burger]

The pic isn't clear but I believe the 15mm coming from the flow before the magna clean is just a bypass which is teed in to the top connection of the 22mm cylinder return.

If you mean the iso valve this appears to be closed. Also there’s another valve (looks like a lockshield) on the return pipe from cylinder. Whatever is wrong with the installation needs correcting.

Margaret, I don’t think re-doing the pipes (straws as you are referring) straight will make a difference.

 

[Aire]

Yeah the lockshied that's closed, to me looks like it should be a bypass, not 2 flow pipes. I'm not sure what that valve on the return is, looks like an old straight radiator valve.

But yes it does want correcting and I think Margaret should bite the bullet and call in another independent engineer.