Hot water from Valliant Boiler

[Burger]

The other angle I was looking at was the direction of flow on the Drayton valves. Should flow from A through to B, but looks incorrect on this set-up.

 

[Aire]

Yep, both the wrong way round by the looks of it, might explain why she's had to have new actuators so soon.

 

[Burger]

Hi Margaret,

I’m not how good they are, or sure if they do the heating/hot water side, but might be worth calling these?

Expert Vaillant Boiler Servicing Repairs. Ex-Vaillant Engineers London

 

[Margaret T]

The other angle I was looking at was the direction of flow on the Drayton valves. Should flow from A through to B, but looks incorrect on this set-up.

View attachment 38484

Hello there, I recall, when I pressed the hive to boost for HW (meaning 'on'), the Drayton on the HW pipe (was on A, and the black clip on the top was upwards popped out heading upwards). But when I clicked cancel HW Boost on the hive, the black on side slided downwards to B, and the top clip also slid downwards. Hope this makes sense as to what I saw.

 

[Margaret T]

This is what Brambles means, the Drayton (actuator - plumber/heating engineer terminology) has been disconnected, as in dangling down. You have flow into your cylinder twice, and possibly not going somewhere else as the isolation valve is off. Below is a ‘basic’ principle of how your system should work, however where it is blue, yours is red, and where it is red, yours is red. Hope this makes a bit more sense?

View attachment 38483

Thanks, CBW1982 for the diagram, would this possibly explain why my water is only lukewarm and not hot? [When immersion switched off and Hive left to run as per the set schedule timer]

 

[Riley]

The valve on the return from the cylinder is to throttle down the cylinder to slow the flow and help with heat transfer

 

[Burger]

Hello there, I recall, when I pressed the hive to boost for HW (meaning 'on'), the Drayton on the HW pipe (was on A, and the black clip on the top was upwards popped out heading upwards). But when I clicked cancel HW Boost on the hive, the black on side slided downwards to B, and the top clip also slid downwards. Hope this makes sense as to what I saw.

Hi Margaret,

It should when on go towards B, then return to A

 

[Burger]

Thanks, CBW1982 for the diagram, would this possibly explain why my water is only lukewarm and not hot? [When immersion switched off and Hive left to run as per the set schedule timer]

It certainly sounds like it

 

[Margaret T]

Hi Margaret,

It should when on go towards B, then return to A

Morning CBW1982, I recall when it was HW was activated for 'on' it was A, and when I clicked cancel on the Hive boost - the Drayton cube slid back down to 'B' and the clip on the top of the cube also went downwards.

 

[Burger]

Morning CBW1982, I recall when it was HW was activated for 'on' it was A, and when I clicked cancel on the Hive boost - the Drayton cube slid back down to 'B' and the clip on the top of the cube also went downwards.

Morning Margaret,

I would say that this is incorrect, and is probably as Craig has said why you needed a new synchron motor in the heating, wouldn’t surprise me if you needed one for the hot water also. It’s obviously been setup wrong, and as difficult as it sounds, I think you need to write off your other engineer and get another one in - maybe one for Citizens Advice? I would also complain to Vaillant as you obtained your engineer from their website - maybe something they could help with?

 

[Aire]

Morning Margaret,

I would say that this is incorrect, and is probably as Craig has said why you needed a new synchron motor in the heating, wouldn’t surprise me if you needed one for the hot water also. It’s obviously been setup wrong, and as difficult as it sounds, I think you need to write off your other engineer and get another one in - maybe one for Citizens Advice? I would also complain to Vaillant as you obtained your engineer from their website - maybe something they could help with?

Definitely complain to vaillant. The engineers on their website the same as Any other only means they have completed one of their training courses. It doesn't actually mean the installer knows what they are doing.

 

[Margaret T]

Definitely complain to vaillant. The engineers on their website the same as Any other only means they have completed one of their training courses. It doesn't actually mean the installer knows what they are doing.

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility.

I also recall that I asked whether if there are there any other works required for the installation before any works started, and the installer said no and that all prices have been factored in.

Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

 

[Aire]

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility. Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

Vaillant themselves aren't responsible for the installs of the independent installers on their website and to be honest, I'm not sure if a complaint will get you anything other than an apology but if it was me, I would still complain as an installer who they have effectively recommended has messed up and is costing you time and possibly money.

 

[Burger]

Hello Craig, I remember I called out Vaillant and an engineer visited because of the reoccurring problem. He said it was nothing to do with the boiler and to contact the installer. The Vaillant engineer also said that they are not responsible for the installer even though I told him this person was obtained from their website, the Vaillant male said: "the installer is not employed by them". They are denying responsibility.

I also recall that I asked whether if there are there any other works required for the installation before any works started, and the installer said no and that all prices have been factored in.

Not sure where to go with this. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot, everyone on here.

Hello Margaret,

As myself and Craig have suggested, still complain to Vaillant because you have an installation that in effect you can’t use correctly. I have replied stating maybe CAB as you have a product that is not fit for purpose.

Thanks,
Chris.

 

[SimonG]

Forget Vaillant, the boilers fine and although you obtained the installers info off of their website they won't give a monkeys. They should do though, and remove the installer, but it will be of no concern to them.
Write a letter, recorded delivery, to the installer. Outline the issues and state if you do not receive within 7 days a definitive way forward to correct the install then you will have no option but to employ somebody to correct the installation at their expense.
No more phone calls only letters.

 

[Margaret T]

Forget Vaillant, the boilers fine and although you obtained the installers info off of their website they won't give a monkeys. They should do though, and remove the installer, but it will be of no concern to them.
Write a letter, recorded delivery, to the installer. Outline the issues and state if you do not receive within 7 days a definitive way forward to correct the install then you will have no option but to employ somebody to correct the installation at their expense.
No more phone calls only letters.

Hello SimonG, wanted to ask, I have an invoice from British Gas for their attendance to the house to look at the hot water issue (as the original installer was not available at the time when contacted). British gas came and he replaced the PCB board but I've been charged for this work, in consideration feel rather unfair with the additional charge when the boiler was newly installed?

 

[Aire]

I don't have many run ins when it comes to boilers under warranty but it is my understanding that if any individual other than the manufacturers attempt a repair, does it not void the warranty?

 

[SimonG]

Hello SimonG, wanted to ask, I have an invoice from British Gas for their attendance to the house to look at the hot water issue (as the original installer was not available at the time when contacted). British gas came and he replaced the PCB board but I've been charged for this work, in consideration feel rather unfair with the additional charge when the boiler was newly installed?

Should have got Vaillant, it was under warranty. Would probably think it didn't even need a pcb board, but I would imagine that ship has sailed.

I always say to my customers with a new boiler, any issues phone me first, if I'm unavailable then phone the manufacturer as it's under warranty.

 

[Margaret T]

Hello, would like your opinion please. The original installer last visited on 30/04/2019 and he said would return after changing the two straw pipes to criss-cross. Before he left, the immersion was switched off, the CH left to run which gave us HW, the Drayton was not clipped onto the CH pipe but the HW did have Drayton attached. He also said to not use the hive. So my assumption is that everything was left 'on' running? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Over this time period, we had HW. However, CH was a bit weird. On 08/05/2019, we closed off the CH via using the hive in the evening. But in the morning the radiators were on and very hot. Having checked the hive, the status was off, but it stopped working late on.

Has anyone had this sort of problem?

Thanks a lot to those who previous replied to my post. I feel lost and not sure what to do.

 

[Margaret T]

I don't have many run ins when it comes to boilers under warranty but it is my understanding that if any individual other than the manufacturers attempt a repair, does it not void the warranty?

Hello Craig, thanks for your response. I did contact the installer on four previous occasions which he attended and the following was addressed:

1. The first visit, air lock in the system and told us to if happen again to turn the black lever in the airing cupboard;
2. The second visit replaced the syncron motor on the heating valve;
3. The third visit advised to keep the immersion on constant;
4. The fourth visit said found a small leak and replaced the red wheelie.

Thereafter, the fourth visit, the HW remained an issue.

The bank holiday approached, we tried to contact the original installer but he was not available and as am sure with anyone, having cover on the CH and HW, British G was booked in. I hope this clarifies as to the above?

Thanks.

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

It's quite clear you've got a control issue and an engineer who doesn't know what he's doing. You need to get a new professional in to sort out the situation.

To be honest I don't know why you'd get BG out when it's a new install and it's obvious it's something wrong with the new install and not the existing system. You should have pushed the original installer.

BG shouldn't have replaced the PCB when it wasn't at fault at all and really should refund you for this as the issue you called them out to is still occurring. However I doubt you'd get any money out of them when it becomes evident that the installation is wrong.

As for criss crossing the pipes (Which looks dreadful!), is the flow and return now the right way round? To check this look on your motorised valve on the cylinder (The white drayton box) which will have an A & B on the brass body. Turn the system on from cold and the hot water should flow from A to B on the motorised valve. If it doesn't then something is wrong. (So the top pipe going into the side of the cylinder should get hot before the bottom pipe).

 

[Aire]

Hi Margaret, I feel the best course of action for you to do now is contact another installer. Do a little research and find a competent one. Ask the installer to come round and investigate what's wrong with your system, and write a list of all that he feels is wrong and roughly how much it will cost to put right. Once you have this info, write a letter to your original installer stating that you have had another installer look at the installation and inform him what is wrong and how much you have been quoted to put it right. Tell him you will allow him upto 7 days to come back and correct his work, and that if he doesn't respond or again fails to get your system working properly, you will be getting the other installer back and you will then seek to claim back the cost of this additional work. As mentioned previously by Simon, Do this by recorded delivery, you will then know and have proof that your installer has received the letter.

 

[Brambles]

Margaret,

If we trawl back through this problem, from my perspective it comes back to two issues:

From the photographs you have provided, it looks as if the pipework installation is sending a flow to both the flow and return terminals of the indirect hot water tank.

It also appears that the two port valves and possibly the Hive controller have been installed in correctly.

Both of the above give a clear indication that the installer of the system was inept and probably not competent.

To correct this situation you require a reputable plumber, to survey the system and to give you a priced proposal to modify the current installation into a fully working S Plan system.

At that point you can then decide how to proceed to get you system operating properly and (just as importantly) how to recover the additional money you have already spent and will need to spend to rectify the problem.

If the sum is large enough, you should consider giving the original installer one opportunity to correct the installation, thereafter engage a competent plumber and recover your costs through the small claims court.

Which ever route you take, to recover your costs, you need to establish a clear base line ( in the form if a short, but detailed report) now of what is wrong with the installation and how much it will cost to correct. It is equally important to establish a base line to preserve the warranty that you believe you have for the Vailient Boiler. By allowing people (BG) to tinker will a newly installed boiler, you are putting that warranty at risk

It may be that you household insurance policy will provide legal cover to assist in your claim.

I feel sorry for you with British Gas and I think that you should challenge them on the basis that they fitted a part that was not needed. However, if you call people in on an adhoc basis you need to recognise that they are going to charge for their time.

When I first read you post, I interpreted it as a control issue - they are generally a simple fix ( either correcting the wiring or replacing a faulty part). Once you provided photographs of the pipework around the hot water cylinder, it became apparent that the pipework has been installed incorrectly - this is a more expensive fix. It is also harder to interpret system behaviour, when the pipework is fundamentally wrong. I am surprised that you have ever managed to get hot water with the cylinder piped in that way

At the end of the day a system like yours is a very common straight forward installation - it is not complex and is fixable, once the scope of work required to do so is established.

Hopefully the above will help you to establish a clear and successful way forward.

 

[Margaret T]

Thanks all. Can the criss-cross pipes (originally two straws) be put back to normal? It was unexpected and an eyesore just as you walk into the kitchen! Why would this be changed to criss-cross anyway? Can this be put back to normal? Seems like decoration with two straight straws at the top, then twidles criss-cross towards the bottom then goes back to normal.

The installer was previously with BG and 13 years experience as displayed/advertised on Valiant website.

 

[Burger]

The installer was previously with BG and 13 years experience as displayed/advertised on Valiant website.

Can the criss-cross pipes (originally two straws) be put back to normal? - yes they can, but it needs to be done correctly and checked for correct operation. As we have said, it’s fixable, but needs doing by someone who should know what they’re doing.

I had an ex BG service my boiler (before I could) and I wasn’t impressed with what he’d left - a boiler that was condensing into the casing and a high PPM reading in the flue analyser.