Inadequate Circulator Pump?

[John.g]

Its nigh impossible to make any comment on your set up without at least a schematic to show how the two systems are integrated and how recirculation through one system is prevented with either system in use, the potential for very dangerous conditions exist if these systems are not properly installed, I would strongly advise not to use the stove until problems addressed.

 

[JC22024]

Yes I plumbed the stove in about 5 years ago. It is absolutely safe I made sure of that hence why I wanted to do it myself. Eg, large capacity gravity rad which was sized per manual to soak away the heat if fhe power went out in use and heating not circulating. In conjunction with high and low pipe stats and a thermostatic damper on the stoce which at that time was special order. (Now it is legal requirement as I understand it and all new stoves should come with it.

But... here is an update. When I changed the ball cock in heating tank I noted it was too high. Set about 2 inches below the outlet.

So the new ball cock heating tank level is only a couple inches above the outlet to allow for expansion.

So that was yet another error in the system.

But the main error it appears when I thought about it is the actual vent pipe itself. This house has the old school heating plumbing whereby if you wanted hot water it switched the boiler on and no pump hence it raised up the pipe and fell back down warming the cylinder coil.

That is a 22mm pipe which goes from the boiler and loops over and down into the hot press. With a 15mm vent pipe teed off that mid point and above heating tank.

Years ago when I was upgrading the controls in the house I may have made an error of judgement 🙄 I fitted a cylinder stat and control valve to the hotpress 22mm pipe.

I was thinking about this and did a test there by turning on hot water to permanent on (I normally use economy 7 electric on immersion heater all year around) and switch heating on and off.

Bingo- now the heating tank water level stays AOK doesn't rise. Sits at correct level. Could be speaking too soon but before I opened that it was pumping up and out the overflow then filling back up again a little when shut down. Now it stays level. Will it creep up still? Time will tell.

I guess this is just how the house was plumbed and I need to remove that valve, the only downside being that there will always be a degree of hot water from normal space heating running but that's OK.

 

[JC22024]

So just to make this clearer, I belive the expansion tank puking out water has been a long term problem. The overflow is out the back of the house and I'm usually never out there. But I recall before seeing it putting bursts of water out of the pipe and thinking "I need to look at that" but never did.

After the old boiler burst and working on system in recent weeks I noticed the high water level in the heating expansion tank. And thought must be ball valve. I renewed that and lowered the water level.

But it wasn't the ball cock. It was the fact that one end of the 22mm vent / feed pipe was effectively capped in the hot press.

So in that state when you turn the heating on and all is bled properly the lower feed pipe in the header tank backfeeds water and rises the level in the tank until it overflows a couple litres out the overflow pipe.

Now with the hot press valve overrode/ powered on this does not happen. There must be a small head in the water, perhaps intentional that travels down into the HW cylinder when the system is operating. And since it couldn't go that route through the cylinder it was instead being pushed up into the header tank.

So I'll leave the HW valve permanently on for a few days and report back If heating tank water level / puking issues are now resolved.

Space heating is superb 👌 Pump on setting 2. Overflow from heating tank also now bypassing the drinking water tank. And I did renew the second ball cock in the main loft tank today as it was actually constantly leaking.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Can you roughly draw the set up also feed and vent positions

 

[JC22024]

Can you roughly draw the set up also feed and vent positions

Yes I will in coming days and will post. Will monitor heating tank and see if this went away also.

If it doesn't next step for me will be to temporarily cap the stove pipes in boiler room to remove it from equation.

 

[John.g]

Have you measured the dT across any of the rads yet?

 

[JC22024]

Have you measured the dT across any of the rads yet?

I can do that in the coming days, should I leave the heating running for a couple of hours before I measure that?

 

[John.g]

You can do it anytime after the boiler starts cycling (like now), just take it off one or two, but before the burner cuts out, any idea what the on/off cycle times are now?

 

[JC22024]

You can do it anytime after the boiler starts cycling (like now), just take it off one or two, but before the burner cuts out, any idea what the on/off cycle times are now?

We are away this evening so I'll turn it on tomorrow when I get home, time etc and report back.

What I did not earlier was a 20c difference in the boiler feed and return temps. I think this is fairly optimal(?) On speed 2 after it had been running for an hour or so

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yes 20 is spot on for the boiler

 

[John.g]

That's more like what I would have expected alright as it means that the flowrate is actually, 26*860/60/20, 18.6LPM, which makes more sense with a pump running with a constant head of 6M.

 

[JC22024]

How to calculate the

After you have worked out the heat requirement for your room (AEL's easy-to-use BTU calculator will help you do this), how can you check that the radiator you have chosen will provide enough heat output? There is a simple calculation to check if the radiator will provide sufficient heat output...

www.buildingservicesindex.co.uk

Should I be waiting until the radiators are balanced before taking the above readings? Or for now, prior to proper balancing taking place just shoot the centre of the rad for an average temp across the ground floor?

 

[John.g]

No need to wait for balancing just now, the easiest quick test for now is to time say two on/off cycles, and then take the boiler flow and return temps while boiler is firing and as close to burner cut out as possible, ie if burner run time is say 2 mins, take flow&return temps after say 90secs or so and I can calculate the average rad(s) output and temps based on these and the boiler cycle times.

 

[JC22024]

No need to wait for balancing just now, the easiest quick test for now is to time say two on/off cycles, and then take the boiler flow and return temps while boiler is firing and as close to burner cut out as possible, ie if burner run time is say 2 mins, take flow&return temps after say 90secs or so and I can calculate the average rad(s) output and temps based on these and the boiler cycle times.

Yes I'll do that this evening and mark current return / feed temps on the rads on the GF plan.

Then will balance later this week. Will clean the mag filter each day - more so to use the dosing capacity to get the new 2L of X800 into the system. Then after boxing day I'll drain and flush the whole system for final time and add inhibitor

 

[JC22024]

OK, heat has been on for a few hours downstairs zone only. It was at the 19.5c digital stat setting in living room so I think was likely OFF for a while before I got to testing it.

Hence readings may have been when it was warming up again :

72c out
54 return
7.5 mins run tune
1 min off time

Note I just took a temp reading at top middle of each rad. Then the last one which was always cold flow and return temps too.

Hasn't been balanced properly yet but appears decent spread all the same. (I had just balanced by hand feel last week) Pump on speed setting two still.

Bedroom 2 rad is off as room being refurbished at moment. I will get a new double Myson rad and liquid Drayton TRV for it this spring.

Utility will be Knocked down this summer so it's rad is off possibly for good.

 

[John.g]

That gives a flow rate of 21LPM and a boiler output of 23kw, also the mid point (mean) temp of each rad is remarkably consistent at ~ 62/63c and probably pretty accurate as the mean of the boiler flow&return is 63C, giving a rads output of ~ 84%, don't see any real reason to balance these rads based on your numbers. 18C is a almost perfect dT IMO. You might just take another cycle time after full system heat up as difficult to see your hose requiring 23kw to maintain 19/20C.

 

[JC22024]

That gives a flow rate of 21LPM and a boiler output of 23kw, also the mid point (mean) temp of each rad is remarkably consistent at ~ 62/63c and probably pretty accurate as the mean of the boiler flow&return is 63C, giving a rads output of ~ 84%, don't see any real reason to balance these rads based on your numbers. 18C is a almost perfect dT IMO. You might just take another cycle time after full system heat up as difficult to see your hose requiring 23kw to maintain 19/20C.

Thank you for the assistance and calcs with this! Yes for sure I'll re check boiler run times tomorrow they appear too high but I think the stat was just off and back on again.

Upstairs been running for about an hour there on its own. I did a better balance on the rads - each rad has about 5c drop across it. All rad temps pretty much identical at 64c.

4 doubles and 1 single at present. (1 double missing again!)

Boiler outlet temp 74c
Return temp 57c
2.19 run time
1.43 off time

On watching it for 2no cycles the run time dropped by a few seconds which would make sense as the house heat demand/ soak will drop off as it heats up I guess. If running longer would probably go 50/50 or less run time I would say.

 

[JC22024]

Since the first 2L of X800 cleaner was wasted due to no water circulation and drained I added another 1.5L tonight.

I'll let that run for a few days and add the last .5L just before draining.

The mag filter is collecting black sludge. A day of running it has about 5mm coating on it. Again this system was never fitted with a filter so I expect this will drop off as I monitor and clean it.

The cleaner is probably moving the stuff around and the mag grabbing it. Ill monitor and clean the magnet until such times as it remains clean for a week or more run time.

It is a Grant Mag One 28mm filter, really well designed bit of kit,. Just a minute or two to shut off, drain, clean and bleed again.

They are definitely highly effective wish it was fitted sooner.

 

[John.g]

Thank you for the assistance and calcs with this! Yes for sure I'll re check boiler run times tomorrow they appear too high but I think the stat was just off and back on again.

Upstairs been running for about an hour there on its own. I did a better balance on the rads - each rad has about 5c drop across it. All rad temps pretty much identical at 64c.

4 doubles and 1 single at present. (1 double missing again!)

Boiler outlet temp 74c
Return temp 57c
2.19 run time
1.43 off time

On watching it for 2no cycles the run time dropped by a few seconds which would make sense as the house heat demand/ soak will drop off as it heats up I guess. If running longer would probably go 50/50 or less run time I would say.

What size are those rads?, I am getting 2.9kw/double rad (assuming "4.5" doubles) based on heat input of 13kw and 3.5kw/double rad based on heat input of 15.73kw (based on cycle time). This gives a average rad deltaT of 8.5C or 10.3C almost double of your values.
Can you post the size of burner nozzle fitted to the Firebird.

 

[JC22024]

What size are those rads?, I am getting 2.9kw/double rad (assuming "4.5" doubles) based on heat input of 13kw and 3.5kw/double rad based on heat input of 15.73kw (based on cycle time). This gives a average rad deltaT of 8.5C or 10.3C almost double of your values.
Can you post the size of burner nozzle fitted to the Firebird.

The rads are all glossy white so was hard to get accurate temps on them. Whilst 5 was about the average a couple were nearer 10 maybe depending on what exact spot I took the reading.

2 of them are 4 ft Myson double Finned (belt out the heat)



2 other doubles are older none finned 6 foots. And a tall vertical single radiator in bathroom.

The boiler has a 0.65gph nozzle at present.



Pipes also run down an unheated cubbyhole, they are lagged but probably lose some heat there too.

 

[JC22024]

Happy New Year to all! I did get the rising CH expansion tank issue resolved. I fitted 28m ball valves on the stove pipes in the boiler room which shut it off from the system when not in use. This is 100% fine as it is only lit once in a blue moon and only by me so I know to open the yellow levers before lighting it. And for avoidance of doubt I will fit a warning notice on the stove to instruct same.

I reduced the pumps speed setting to 1 and the house still heats 100% fine that way. I am currently progressing the painting of the boiler room and will be fitting new pipe lagging in there too.

I do wonder now should I fit an automatic bypass valve?

A reminder is this house had no TRVs and was all one zone with no stats.

Now it is split into 2no zones and TRVs are fitted to all rads except the 2no In the rooms with the stats.

I wonder that now if one of the 2no 2 port zone valves fails to open the pump will be running with no where for the pressure to go. Since it is no longer a smart pump either.

As a safety factor, to reduce stress on pump / boiler and in order to reduce noise of TRVs when the others start to shut I think it would be a good idea(?) There is no such device on this system at present automatic or otherwise but then at the time that wouldn't have been a consideration with no TRVs etc.

I could install an automatic bypass valve between the 22mm upstairs zone pipes about 2m pipe distance from the boiler. After pump and before boiler return and where there are no zone valves yet to stop flow around the bypass loop.

If anyone here thinks that would be a good idea I may go ahead and order a quality ABV by Honeywell or similar and get it installed which would complete this project.

 

[JC22024]

Or is it a case you should only install an ABV if you are experiencing issues such as excess noise from TRVs which I am not experiencing at present.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

If the port valves don’t open the pump shouldn’t run

Better to put a bypass rad before the zones as with abv on big pumps they tend to be always open as there normally installed close to the pump

 

[JC22024]

If the port valves don’t open the pump shouldn’t run

Better to put a bypass rad before the zones as with abv on big pumps they tend to be always open as there normally installed close to the pump

Thanks for that and yes fair point. My system is using the microswitches so probably not an issue. I guess a gate valve I'm conjunction with the abv would provide additional control. But with the big pump being so efficient on speed 1 I don't hear any trv valves making excess noise so I'll just monitor and if its not broke don't fix it!!

Being in the boiler room alot the past couple of days I did notice that on the first startup of the day there is a faint popping noise heard inside the burner. I think the new boiler would benefit from a Tiger Loop. I'll order the correct all metal internal type and vent it externally per instructions.

 

[John.g]

Oil fired boilers in general do not need ABVs as the Hx holds 20/25 litres of water which acts as a buffer so when the boiler+ pump cuts out, the water temperature (from a target temp of say 70C) will not rise > 90C/95C, a long way from the hi limit lockout of 113C. Gas boilers have a Hx content of only a few litres and this is why they have a timed pump overrun after all zone valves shut, the water then has no where to go so need a ABV.