Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[SafeGasInstall]

But this is not just limited to own. It also applies to friends and family and let's face it, everyone could be classed as friends. So far you've stated that commissioning record is not a legal requirement and that you don't have to report dangerous Gas occurrence for own. I am interested to know how you'd handle this situation! Suppose you fit a boiler in a "mate's" house then you discover signs of spillage in the front room against which you'd have to ID the appliance. How would you go about doing this process without having the one ref that ties everything together, i.e your Gas Safe Registration number!

this is not recognised situation as work for a friend without gain payment ! payment or not payment you were the last man there therefore if you have been employed to do work on that appliance even safety check then its your responsibility if your mates family die , dont matter who has fitted it

 

[Reza]

this is not recognised situation as work for a friend without gain payment ! payment or not payment you were the last man there therefore if you have been employed to do work on that appliance even safety check then its your responsibility if your mates family die , dont matter who has fitted it

It seems that some people are perfectly happy to do work at mate's house and when they come across a dangerous situation, to avoid following procedure as it's a mate house so it wouldn't matter. No sir, the better way to conduct as a professional is to obtain a consent from the employer, then apply for registration and pay your dues like ever other earner. That way, when there is an accident or a case of negligence, they too can be traced and be prepared to stand and dance like the rest of us have to.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

sure everyone will do the walk to the prison no matter has he been paid for or not , should a fatality happen !

 

[Masood]

such a thing does not exist !!! not in my training centre when i did my acs ! every person that does gas must be competent
and then competent person is the one that has done acs and is gsr only

Sorry Stan, but you've been told wrong. If you read the current ACOPS document (L56), the definition of competency has no requirement for formal training, nor registration. This is not a good thing, but it most definitely does exist. The revisions in the consultation documents go some way towards tightening this up, but still don't list ACS or GSR as mandatory requirements.

 

[Reza]

Sorry Stan, but you've been told wrong. If you read the current ACOPS document (L56), the definition of competency has no requirement for formal training, nor registration. This is not a good thing, but it most definitely does exist. The revisions in the consultation documents go some way towards tightening this up, but still don't list ACS or GSR as mandatory requirements.

The definition of competency is given in COP20 not the L56. Secondly the initial and revised version both are flawed no matter how they present the point across. Registering with Gas Safe Register must be the only way to work with Gas as an engineer. It only cost a minimal amount to register as a second employment anyway, those who don't and give the excuse of the regulation, have something to hide.

 

[Masood]

The definition of competency is given in COP20 not the L56.

So it is. And so what? That doesn't change the fact that competency is not currently defined as having passed ACS and being GSR. No amount of wishing or insisting will make that so. That definition does not exist at present.

Secondly the initial and revised version both are flawed no matter how they present the point across. Registering with Gas Safe Register must be the only way to work with Gas as an engineer.

Not many would disagree with you that the definitions are flawed.

those who don't and give the excuse of the regulation, have something to hide.

Maybe, maybe not.

People have different reasons for doing DIY work. Not all do it for money, some do it for the satisfaction. When all's said and done, gas safety to the level required by GSR is really not rocket science. I know GSRs who are thick as p*gs&^t but are good at what they do because they learnt by repetition. They have no understanding of why they
are doing it a certain way, they just do it out of habit. And there are engineers who have never taken an ACS assessment, who know more than you and I will ever learn about gas. They are the people who write the regulations. Who is to say they couldn't safely fit a boiler?

 

[SafeGasInstall]

So it is. And so what? That doesn't change the fact that competency is not currently defined as having passed ACS and being GSR. No amount of wishing or insisting will make that so. That definition does not exist at present.



Not many would disagree with you that the definitions are flawed.



Maybe, maybe not.

People have different reasons for doing DIY work. Not all do it for money, some do it for the satisfaction. When all's said and done, gas safety to the level required by GSR is really not rocket science. I know GSRs who are thick as p*gs&^t but are good at what they do because they learnt by repetition. They have no understanding of why they
are doing it a certain way, they just do it out of habit. And there are engineers who have never taken an ACS assessment, who know more than you and I will ever learn about gas. They are the people who write the regulations. Who is to say they couldn't safely fit a boiler?

in his/her van

 

[Reza]

Mate, we really need to stop playing with words. You can interporate competency whichever way you like, but let me ask you this, is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes. Second question, What's one level below being GSRed qualified? I think you find the answer is being ACS qualified. If ACS does not qualify for competency in your book then you must have worked to some other requirements and standards. As far as I know, when you are in reciept of your ACS, few hundred quid later, and you are Gas Safe Registered.

 

[Reza]

Mate I have 2:1 and an MSc in electronic engineering, still, I wouldn't be so fast as to dismissing NVQ 2/3 qualified guys as being thick as PS! Working with Gas requires confidance and consentration. You must also be able to be methodical and number crunch arithmetic equations. Sorry but it seems on that front we don't think alike either!

 

[Reza]

Let me get this absolutely and 100% right Masood. You are saying that it is fine for competant people to work with Gas installation, even though they have no records as being Gas Safe Registered, despite the issues that this may bring along, issues which I have thus far described, i.e. commissioining record, RIDDOR, Unsafe Procedure, not to mention rogue operation with their financial affairs, i.e. contributions and so on and so forth! Is that what your argument is!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

i think we should all have a drink and let it be

 

[Nostrum]

Let me get this absolutely and 100% right Masood. You are saying that it is fine for competant people to work with Gas installation, even though they have no records as being Gas Safe Registered, despite the issues that this may bring along, issues which I have thus far described, i.e. commissioining record, RIDDOR, Unsafe Procedure, not to mention rogue operation with their financial affairs, i.e. contributions and so on and so forth! Is that what your argument is!

sorry, I'm with masood on this one. Whether you like it or not, the regulations currently in force do not define competence in any great detail. Competent persons schemes such as gas safe are in place to allow tradesemen to self certify that the work they have carried out is in compliance with the current building regulations. This is the same for electrical, oil, solid fuel, double glazed windows etc etc the only difference with gas is that the gsiur regulations specify that anyone trading in the gas industry must be registered with the appropriate bodies, gas safe.

There is nothing to stop you fitting your own consumer unit and getting the local building authority to inspect the installation and register it, and that's exactly the same with gas, and the rest of them.

The only way to change this is to get the gsiur regulations altered. Regulations are law, anything else is guidance, best practice, british standard or similar.

 

[Derek Hardman]

If you work on a friends boiler, and you are GSR, they find out and you are going to find yourself on the end of a 'working out of the scope of your card', this, in court, would be the same as doing commercial catering without having your catering ticket, the penalty could possibly be prison. This is what I was told by GSR.

 

[Reza]

The only way to change this is to get the gsiur regulations altered.

I agree with that.

 

[Reza]

i think we should all have a drink and let it be

I hope you don't mind, but I already did, cheers. lol

 

[Nostrum]

Or increase the consumer awareness on the certification process, and maybe introduce fines for non compliance, or lack of registration by cowboy installers. All of a sudden, bill from down the pub fitting you boiler for £100 on the weekend doesn't sound like as good a deal if the lack of certificate will cost you £1000.

 

[Reza]

I think perhaps people are not paying attention. I didn't say what the regulation defines and what it doesn't! I asked a straight forward question and that is if individuals think the L56 in principle is on the right track despite the issues surrounding it!

 

[SafeGasInstall]

i have had about 5 drinks by now !

gas safe took over about 4 years if i am not wrong , a part of taking my and your yearly charge and sending me my magazine dont think thay have done much . another legal scam

 

[Nostrum]

How can it be on the right or wrong track though? It is guidance for current regulation. Therefore they can only clarify some misconception surrounding the requirements for registration. This is why you cannot enforce boiler sales to registered engineers only. It would be like saying you cannot buy a light switch from b and q unless your a registered electrician.

its unlikely the regulations will change any time soon. It is possible to introduce tougher penalties for breach of building control notification though.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Today i was asked about an old Corgi certificate of compliance which a customer has lost, but now need to sell the house (according to the estate agent/solicitors), Corgi cannot supply copies (according to Corgi), GSR cannot duplicate the old Corgi certificate (According to GSR), and building control say they dont need to get involved as the completed Benchmark will suffice as proof of compliance as stated on the front cover of the Benchmark book? Trying not to thread wander here, but it is relative to the OP.

 

[Reza]

How can it be on the right or wrong track though? It is guidance for current regulation. Therefore they can only clarify some misconception surrounding the requirements for registration. This is why you cannot enforce boiler sales to registered engineers only. It would be like saying you cannot buy a light switch from b and q unless your a registered electrician.
its unlikely the regulations will change any time soon. It is possible to introduce tougher penalties for breach of building control notification though.

Unlikely but not impossible. If I'm not wrong, you too can see the shortfalls and contradictory nature of these rules, which we are now bringing to the attention of the powers that be.

 

[Nostrum]

Today i was asked about an old Corgi certificate of compliance which a customer has lost, but now need to sell the house (according to the estate agent/solicitors), Corgi cannot supply copies (according to Corgi), GSR cannot duplicate the old Corgi certificate (According to GSR), and building control say they dont need to get involved as the completed Benchmark will suffice as proof of compliance as stated on the front cover of the Benchmark book? Trying not to thread wander here, but it is relative to the OP.

I would be arguing that. Benchmark is not a proof of compliance. It is a report of how the appliance was commissioned and the results at that time. The new benchmark certificates do have a space for notification number, but the benchmark does not prove it was notified. Building control should hold a record, and at a cost should be able to supply a duplicate certificate.

Thats like saying if you fill in the benchmark you don't need to notify. This as we all know is wrong.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Building control have no record according to them, it was registered just before the changeover, we will see what happens next when the customer has let rip into whoever owes an explanation, I only know it wont be me due to proof of register payment

 

[Reza]

How can it be on the right or wrong track though? It is guidance for current regulation. Therefore they can only clarify some misconception surrounding the requirements for registration. This is why you cannot enforce boiler sales to registered engineers only. It would be like saying you cannot buy a light switch from b and q unless your a registered electrician.

its unlikely the regulations will change any time soon. It is possible to introduce tougher penalties for breach of building control notification though.

Unlikely but not impossible. If I'm not wrong, you too can see the shortfalls and contradictory nature of these rules, which we are now bringing to the attention of the powers that be.

 

[Nostrum]

Unlikely but not impossible. If I'm not wrong, you too can see the shortfalls and contradictory nature of these rules, which we are now bringing to the attention of the powers that be.

Its a typical regulation that needs to be dissected word by word for it to make sense, and yet on the other hand the word competent is about a vague as they come! So yes I agree with you in that sense. Actually though, the current guidance makes it clearer for the worse in my opinion. Anyone reading that will now know they can have a go. Over confidence is competence in the eyes of a fool.

i think if you want to push to make change though, which I support, you should aim to change the notification enforcement. This is something which could apply to other fuels such as oil and solid fuel, also electrical work etc.

all the trades are suffering at the hands of DIY bodgers and unregistered cowboys. If you can push for something similar to as I described in the previous posts you could rally up a petition covering many trades and quite easily get signatures from tens of thousands of tradesmen. Get all the trade bodies working together to increase awareness on the importance of notification. They have a vested interest in this as it promotes more business for them.

just to add: this would allow skilled DIYers to carry out work in their homes, but they would then have to pay for an inspection (as they should now anyway) at least then the safety of the installation could be assessed.