Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Derek Hardman]

https://www.facebook.com/megs.uk.campaign
Already a petition for that here Nostrum

 

[Reza]

Actually though, the current guidance makes it clearer for the worse in my opinion. Anyone reading that will now know they can have a go.

This is so true and people haven't considered the repercussions yet I don't think!

 

[Reza]

Actually though, the current guidance makes it clearer for the worse in my opinion. Anyone reading that will now know they can have a go.

Check out this url DIY GAS - DIYnot.com - DIY and Home Improvement
Although this document is not entirely correct, but this is as far and wide things will get into the public domain. simplification of the terms will absoultly do as you suggested. We need to target for change of this silly rule, if that isn't possible as HSE tells me, then making it as clear as mud would probably be the next best thing.

 

[Nostrum]

https://www.facebook.com/megs.uk.campaign
Already a petition for that here Nostrum

Such a sad story. Unfortunately the reality of what it takes to change regulation in this country. If you read the letter posted on the Facebook page you'll See that even a case like this holds no real weight in parliament.

The sad thing is even being gas safe registered doesn't keep the idiots away. It seems that the problem isn't the regulations or need to change them, more like the current regulations need to be adhered too and enforced more strictly. The cost of enforcing them is too great to even consider by way of regular inspections etc. if consumers wised up to what was required (certification etc) and were penalised (in the pocket seems to get people's attention) for not ensuring this was fulfilled, it might help towards a self regulated industry.

 

[Nostrum]

Also, insurance companies should request a copy of the notification. Without it the policy is void. At the moment this is just a piece of paper that most people don't even know exists! How come everyone knows what an MOT certificate looks like, but not a building regulation compliance certificate? It's not published enough.

 

[tamz]

just to add: this would allow skilled DIYers to carry out work in their homes, but they would then have to pay for an inspection (as they should now anyway) at least then the safety of the installation could be assessed.

And who would carry out the inspection. Understaffed gsr or clueless building control? It won't happen. Guys working on the side will never be stopped and individual gsr of every gas operative in the land will certainly never happen.
There are too many opposing forces involved and surely no one could be expected to pay to work which is what you are advocating.
Btw a benchmark proves nothing. Most are garbage filled out by gas safe guys or not. It only proves who fitted it (if indeed that is true) and as much as you know the stuff written on it is as believable as a fairy story you have no way of proving otherwise as it is a snapshot on the day.
You mentioned earlier

but let me ask you this, is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes

Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known better

Your idea is good in principle and i agree with what you are trying to do but you are on a hiding to nothing i'm afraid.

 

[Nostrum]

Building control Tamz, as this is the system in place now. The quality of the inspections is another matter and would need to be looked at separately. No one is saying it will completely stamp out shoddy work, but it will go some way to helping. The consumer doesn't have a clue in all fairness. There are people out there who easily exploit that by poor workmanship and no registration.
No one said anything about paying to work. The principle is to scare the consumer by way of fines for not ensuring the tradesmen they're using is up to the job and completed it correctly. This will increase the amount of notifications, which will increase revenue to hopefully be able to improve the inspection process. It also leaves a paper trail so that if the customer does get seen off, the registration documents allow the installer to be traced.

its not fool proof but goes some way to tightening up on what is at present a joke of a system.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Here's a post that just went on our forum (Gas Engineers Forum on Facebook);


"I was told the other day about a Worcester engineer telling a customer she need a new boiler ,he and his mate could do it at weekend if she was interested"

Why assume this weak-end working team are not GSR in their own right?
It may well be the "mate" is a self-employed sole trader.

I know many guys who "moonlight" at weekends and have had corgi/gsr in their own name and pub L insurance.
The cost of GSR & insurance is low compared to the consequences of being caught out with out them - they say.
It is also low compared to what we pay in tax - people working on the side for cash and not declaring tax/vat is

Where these guys have an unfair advantage is:
1. they've already earned a weeks wage and got a foot in the door through their employer;
2. they're employer might not like it;
3. they might not be declaring tax - but they might be, we don't know.
4. he might be using the van, parts, equipment provided by his company (stealing) - but he might not be.

I think focusing on being GSR instead of competent is a waste of our time when there are more constructive things we could campaign on:

Why -
1. if gas engineers are working "on the side" for payment without being gsr and without insurance now then they will carry on doing so. There are breaking the law now and obviously don't care about the risk.
2. those who will be penalised by making GSR compulsory for all "diy" work will be some of the very best competent engineers who only work for their employer and do not do work on the side so they do not currently have own gsr. BUt they might help out their family and do DIY at home - why not they know what they are doing - why should they be forced to pay someone else.

I understand we all want to stop cowboys and some unfair competition -
The current legislation already makes it illegal to work without GSR - so if this is not being implimented - efforts should be focused on implementing current rules. It may be that methods for policing the current gas regs need to be changed/improved.

I think there are two separate themes to these discussions:
1.Gas safety & competence. This a popular theme that the public can relate to.
2. Low low prices for private domestic gas work - and unfair competition for this work.

As I have said. We hardly do private gas wok of any sort because competition is so great and prices are rock bottom

Along with rock bottom prices often goes poor quality, not installing to building regs (upgrades TRVs etc), not declaring income for tax. But all these things are illegal so it is about informing the public, informing heating engineers and implementing current rules.

All of which must be easier to achieve that trying to change legislation.

Finally when it comes to prices here is how it works out: If we add £1,000 on top of the cost of materials almost £200 will go to government for VAT.
About £100 might go to various business overheads (adverts, van, phone...)
That leaves £700 profit.
The man declaring nothing and working on the side has already earned his living and could make the same profit as us by charging £300 less, but also as this is extra for him perhaps he is happy to just earn £500.

Any plumber who works all year on supply & fit basis is going to be over the VAT threshold aren't they?

I think it would be more constructive and possibly more successful to focus campaiging efforts on some of these things, and I think you could add more -
1. Rasiing public awareness of GSR & risks.
2. Ensuring only GSR do paid gas work - not builders.
3. Changing this around the SALE of gas fittings - ideally just to GSR trade but at the very least with some warning against DIY gas work.
4. Some small businesses ask customers to buy all the stuff so they can just charge labour and avoid VAT - this is unfair.
5. low VAT rate on all new heating fittings including boilers - why not! Or better remove VAT from boilers, new heating systems and upgrades.... insteead of that ridulous thing with small controls being low VAT rate but only when fitted on their own but not if fitted with a new boiler.
6. Building Regs. - better information publicity for the public so they know what to expect about controls and why their new boiler quote will be so expensive.
7. Or change boiler regs so that people who are poor can be exempt (like 30% of the population) can have cheaper installations that they can actually afford.
8. Get rid of all those schemes that exclude sole traders because of red tape, extra training, extra costs just to do the same work you always did.

 

[Masood]

is being GSRed being competent! I think you find the answer is yes.

Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known better

Thank you Tam for putting it better than I have been managing to do!

Reza - I support what you are trying to do, but I think you have become seriously obsessed with GSR being the only true measure of competence. The "one ring" of gas work if you like. It proves very very little in reality.

The instructor on my course is an example. He is in his 60s, came up through the Gas Board as an apprentice, then gas engineer, supervisor, manager, trainer and finally to a private provider. He had retired off the tools and let his registration lapse. In your book, he is not competent to work on gas! I would never be so arrogant or blind to his decades of experience and knowledge as to dismiss someone like that. I'd rather have him fit my boiler than a lot of the guys that I went through the course with. They were great at memorising what's in the books, and at passing exams, hopeless on the tools. I include myself in that, by the way. I knew very little when I qualified, and most of what I've learnt has been since that time, through experience. Yet if I let my registration lapse, by your reckoning I would be less competent now, than I was was I first got my GSR number!

Remember also that registration only became a legal requirement in 1998 with the introduction of GSIUR. Before that there was no registration scheme, no exams or assessments. Are you suggesting that everybody working on gas before that time was incompetent?

I think you are placing far too much importance on a piece of paper and a little plastic card. Knowledge, skill and experience don't just come from passing exams, and there are people out there who have never taken ACS who are far better engineers than you or I will ever be.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Finally when it comes to prices here is how it works out: If we add £1,000 on top of the cost of materials almost £200 will go to government for VAT.
About £100 might go to various business overheads (adverts, van, phone...)
That leaves £700 profit.
The man declaring nothing and working on the side has already earned his living and could make the same profit as us by charging £300 less, but also as this is extra for him perhaps he is happy to just earn £500.

I forgot to add we are then paying income tax or corporation tax and NI as well. So we are left with about £550 to live on out of the £1,000 - well if we are paying tax at lower threshold - if you are in the higher bracket you are left with less.

And of course we declared our income so we might not be getting all those working tax credit / benefit things - which I know nothing about (I think i may have been entitled to something as I have 3 young kids) but as a self employed person who might be on the fringe of entitlement and our income for the year is finally assessed about 9 months after the year end so we are 18 months too late to put in a claim for that £20 of Tax credit that we might have been entitled too!)

It all gets too complicated and so we often miss out on those things. Moan moan...

The employee who earns "on the side" and doesn't declare may well be getting some kind of top-up benefits too.

 

[Reg Man]

such a thing does not exist !!! not in my training centre when i did my acs ! every person that does gas must be competent
and then competent person is the one that has done acs and is gsr only , if person is gsr under company he/she then does not have the right to do any other gas work does not matter who for if its not work that the business is employed to do

Never said anything different. We all know ACS is a very good way of proving competence and would go along way to demonstrating this if it were to be challenged in a court of law. So as I said earlier if I am a qualified gas fitter with up to date ACS in all the relevant cat's (competent), I work for a registered business in the week as a GSR registered operative. So if some people had there way they would change the law to prevent me carrying out gas work in my own home (DIY) out of my work time unless I registered with GSR in my own right. OK it may be open to abuse by the majority of DIY people who think they are competent but are not, but it would certainly be against the rights of those who have proven competence. This has effected me in the past, when I worked for a registered business and the terms of my employment did not allow me to have my own personal registration. Also if I did register with GSR so that I could do the one DIY job at home, What happens when GSR do an inspection on my registration and ask to see 3 jobs I have carried out? They would prefer not to see work at the installers own address and I would have nothing else to show them and they would through the terms and conditions of registration in my face.

 

[lame plumber]

the whole issue about illegal work registered or not is that nothing will be done until you kill or maim some innocent party, and even if your acs approved and gsr with a company, if you do private work out of context and someone is injured, you can be sure you bum is grass, but until that happens no one will care and it will continue to happen.

 

[Reg Man]

the whole issue about illegal work registered or not is that nothing will be done until you kill or maim some innocent party, and even if your acs approved and gsr with a company, if you do private work out of context and someone is injured, you can be sure you bum is grass, but until that happens no one will care and it will continue to happen.

Totally agree, demonstrating competence with every job you do is the only way to keep you out of trouble. We have all come across the people that have passed the ACS but don't practice competence in their every day work.

 

[peteheat]

Maybe if HSE and all other parties to Gas regs looked at some of the photos and after effects of a domestic gas explosion they would realise that there is a very good reason why D.I.Y. clearly should be Banned and any possible confusion about what a man or woman can do in the privacy of their own home where gas is concerned is cleared up.

A Gas problem in one house can effect a whole street not the just house where the leak is, call it social responsibility if you will but Gas should be recognised for what is, an explosive.

One of the benefits of the Gas Safe and RGII registers is the person registered must also be insured, competence will never be clearly defined simply because we are learning something new everyday, even the smartest RGI must keep up with the changes in the products they are installing / servicing or they find themselves out of touch and out of work very fast.

Mistakes happen, all of the regulations should be about limiting the chances of such mistakes.

 

[Reza]

Would you like an honest answer to that. On paper yes, in reality far from it and anyone with any sense can see that. I could teach my grand daughter to pass acs. It proves nothing but it satisfies the governments need for everyone in all areas of work to be competent aka your rse in the sling if it goes wrong because you are trained (really?) and proved "competent" so should have known better

Your idea is good in principle and i agree with what you are trying to do but you are on a hiding to nothing i'm afraid.

you have to draw the line somewhere. Your statement is very generalistic and I guess it could apply to every profession. We have a good qualified machinist then we have a bad one too, if you were to dismiss the bad engineer then we must only push first class Hons degrees through our universities! So far as people knowing what my aspiration from all this is, perhaps you can in a few line describe that, I'm fast beginning to doubt your claim!

 

[Reza]

Building control Tamz, as this is the system in place now. The quality of the inspections is another matter and would need to be looked at separately. No one is saying it will completely stamp out shoddy work, but it will go some way to helping. The consumer doesn't have a clue in all fairness. There are people out there who easily exploit that by poor workmanship and no registration.
No one said anything about paying to work. The principle is to scare the consumer by way of fines for not ensuring the tradesmen they're using is up to the job and completed it correctly. This will increase the amount of notifications, which will increase revenue to hopefully be able to improve the inspection process. It also leaves a paper trail so that if the customer does get seen off, the registration documents allow the installer to be traced.

its not fool proof but goes some way to tightening up on what is at present a joke of a system.

You're absolutely correct. That is why I claim every gas related work should ultimately go through GSR. They have qualified experienced Gas engineers, ok so I agree not all of them are quality based but they sure as hell understand more about Gas than Buildings Control. The effects of L56 in principle supports the contrary.

 

[Reza]

Why assume this weak-end working team are not GSR in their own right?
It may well be the "mate" is a self-employed sole trader.

I know many guys who "moonlight" at weekends and have had corgi/gsr in their own name and pub L insurance.
The cost of GSR & insurance is low compared to the consequences of being caught out with out them - they say.
It is also low compared to what we pay in tax - people working on the side for cash and not declaring tax/vat is

Where these guys have an unfair advantage is:
1. they've already earned a weeks wage and got a foot in the door through their employer;
2. they're employer might not like it;
3. they might not be declaring tax - but they might be, we don't know.
4. he might be using the van, parts, equipment provided by his company (stealing) - but he might not be.

I think focusing on being GSR instead of competent is a waste of our time when there are more constructive things we could campaign on:

Why -
1. if gas engineers are working "on the side" for payment without being gsr and without insurance now then they will carry on doing so. There are breaking the law now and obviously don't care about the risk.
2. those who will be penalised by making GSR compulsory for all "diy" work will be some of the very best competent engineers who only work for their employer and do not do work on the side so they do not currently have own gsr. BUt they might help out their family and do DIY at home - why not they know what they are doing - why should they be forced to pay someone else.

I understand we all want to stop cowboys and some unfair competition -
The current legislation already makes it illegal to work without GSR - so if this is not being implimented - efforts should be focused on implementing current rules. It may be that methods for policing the current gas regs need to be changed/improved.

I think there are two separate themes to these discussions:
1.Gas safety & competence. This a popular theme that the public can relate to.
2. Low low prices for private domestic gas work - and unfair competition for this work.

As I have said. We hardly do private gas wok of any sort because competition is so great and prices are rock bottom

Along with rock bottom prices often goes poor quality, not installing to building regs (upgrades TRVs etc), not declaring income for tax. But all these things are illegal so it is about informing the public, informing heating engineers and implementing current rules.

All of which must be easier to achieve that trying to change legislation.

Finally when it comes to prices here is how it works out: If we add £1,000 on top of the cost of materials almost £200 will go to government for VAT.
About £100 might go to various business overheads (adverts, van, phone...)
That leaves £700 profit.
The man declaring nothing and working on the side has already earned his living and could make the same profit as us by charging £300 less, but also as this is extra for him perhaps he is happy to just earn £500.

Any plumber who works all year on supply & fit basis is going to be over the VAT threshold aren't they?

I think it would be more constructive and possibly more successful to focus campaiging efforts on some of these things, and I think you could add more -
1. Rasiing public awareness of GSR & risks.
2. Ensuring only GSR do paid gas work - not builders.
3. Changing this around the SALE of gas fittings - ideally just to GSR trade but at the very least with some warning against DIY gas work.
4. Some small businesses ask customers to buy all the stuff so they can just charge labour and avoid VAT - this is unfair.
5. low VAT rate on all new heating fittings including boilers - why not! Or better remove VAT from boilers, new heating systems and upgrades.... insteead of that ridulous thing with small controls being low VAT rate but only when fitted on their own but not if fitted with a new boiler.
6. Building Regs. - better information publicity for the public so they know what to expect about controls and why their new boiler quote will be so expensive.
7. Or change boiler regs so that people who are poor can be exempt (like 30% of the population) can have cheaper installations that they can actually afford.
8. Get rid of all those schemes that exclude sole traders because of red tape, extra training, extra costs just to do the same work you always did.

The current regs and the proposed one will create more scenarios for illegal Gas works to take place, also it will give a firmer impression for people to take more work from registered businesses (registered with HMRC). You might as well leave the definitions as ambiguous as it currently is.

 

[tamz]

You certainly have to draw the line somewhere, i agree with you. For its many flaws and failings ACS is what we have and is better than nothing but to make a general statement that everyone who is ACS qualified and GSR'd is truly competent in what they do is nonsense. Competence in any trade or line of work does not solely come from the ability to read and answer a few questions no matter how good or bad you may be at doing the actual work.
I have no idea what your aspirations or final goals are on this but if you don't shout you will never be heard. Maybe you might push a few buttons with those in power, maybe you won't but if you never try you will never know.

 

[Reza]

Thank you Tam for putting it better than I have been managing to do!

Reza - I support what you are trying to do, but I think you have become seriously obsessed with GSR being the only true measure of competence. The "one ring" of gas work if you like. It proves very very little in reality.

The instructor on my course is an example. He is in his 60s, came up through the Gas Board as an apprentice, then gas engineer, supervisor, manager, trainer and finally to a private provider. He had retired off the tools and let his registration lapse. In your book, he is not competent to work on gas! I would never be so arrogant or blind to his decades of experience and knowledge as to dismiss someone like that. I'd rather have him fit my boiler than a lot of the guys that I went through the course with. They were great at memorising what's in the books, and at passing exams, hopeless on the tools. I include myself in that, by the way. I knew very little when I qualified, and most of what I've learnt has been since that time, through experience. Yet if I let my registration lapse, by your reckoning I would be less competent now, than I was was I first got my GSR number!

Remember also that registration only became a legal requirement in 1998 with the introduction of GSIUR. Before that there was no registration scheme, no exams or assessments. Are you suggesting that everybody working on gas before that time was incompetent?

I think you are placing far too much importance on a piece of paper and a little plastic card. Knowledge, skill and experience don't just come from passing exams, and there are people out there who have never taken ACS who are far better engineers than you or I will ever be.

Mate, I'll never question people's intelligence and level of knowledge. What you're describing has nothing to do with my claim. Look it's simple. In no one scenario, you're ever going to please 100% of people 100 % of time. In our industry we must have a code of practice to work to. To say that you must be GSRed to work with Gas may upset some people, this by no means is descriptive of their competence! It is a simple standardisation ethic and every business needs one. It is a very practical situation for those who want to works with Gas, to also become registered. I believe it doesn't even cost as much as full registration any way. Besides mate, at the college where I completed my NVQ, all tutors were GSRed, so I don't see why this gentleman doesn't follow suit!

 

[tamz]

all tutors were GSRed, so I don't see why this gentleman doesn't follow suit!

If i am the gentleman you are referring to, I was gas registered probably before you were born (4 digit number)

 

[Reza]

You certainly have to draw the line somewhere, i agree with you. For its many flaws and failings ACS is what we have and is better than nothing but to make a general statement that everyone who is ACS qualified and GSR'd is truly competent in what they do is nonsense. Competence in any trade or line of work does not solely come from the ability to read and answer a few questions no matter how good or bad you may be at doing the actual work.
I have no idea what your aspirations or final goals are on this but if you don't shout you will never be heard. Maybe you might push a few buttons with those in power, maybe you won't but if you never try you will never know.

Agreed maty, either ACS or GSRed doesn't truly explore competence, but that depends on people's definition of competence. I can only go by what the current system stipulates. COMPETENCE = GSRed = ACS Qualified. Do you want my aims and objective to all this! Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?

 

[Reza]

If i am the gentleman you are referring to, I was gas registered probably before you were born (4 digit number)

No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!

 

[tamz]

Have you seen the petition on line asking for reform and reassessment of the Regs?

No. Do you have a link?

 

[tamz]

No mate, I was referring to Masood's tutor, and I wasn't implying anything in a derogatory terms either buddy, I hope the sentiment is mutual though!

No offence taken. I actually agree with what you seem to be aiming at here. Whether or not you get the powers that be to sit up and listen is another thing.

 

[Reza]

No offence taken. I actually agree with what you seem to be aiming at here. Whether or not you get the powers that be to sit up and listen is another thing.

Buddy, positive things will only happen if you consider the glass as half full. Nothing ventured nothing gained! What really is there to loose! Now how does one upload an image here?