Must you be Gas Safe Registered to do Gas installation? Read HSE's response.

[Nostrum]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

 

[Reza]

The problem is, even if you did manage to get the regulations re-written, the people who evade them will carry on doing so. The regulation isn't really the problem. T&e problem is there is no system in place to deter people from ignoring it. The customer is normally the one who loose out because they don't know any better, so the illegal or sub standard installer takes advantage of it.

No point having a punishment if you can't catch the culprits

let's wait and see how this will enravell, but if what I'm calling for even gets rid of one rogue or illegal or substandard, that one case could have been the cause of this. Wouldn't it be worthed?
BBC News - Four injured in a house explosion in Nottinghamshire

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Ive yet to meet any tradesman who ever considered their contract when it came to feeding their family or paying their bills.
Are you an employer or do you work on your own?
Ii'm an employer and would not allow anyone who worked for me to hold their own registration. Why would they need it when they shouldn't be doing work outside their place of employment taking potential customers from me.

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.

There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.

I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

 

[Reza]

Interesting.
I am an employer too (small - just 5'2" - and a hand full of workers) I think what people do outside of their Mon-Fri 8 to 4 hours is up to them.
Also, being realistic people will do other work - even if it is something totally different (like night club bouncer - amazing what people do in spare time)!
Mr TP has always had own corgi in years gone by when he worked for big employers and so have other guys I've known.


There is the potential for conflict of interest - workers stealing your customers - but it doesn't happen much because people know they will lose their jobs.


I know the guys we've employed over the years have done their own work - but they have found their own customers not competed with us. Our locations & type of work could be relevant.

You are looking at this much from the business perspective, much of what we do on site and on a daily basis is centred around a Gas Safe Registration Number, why! Because right or wrong that's just the way the system is setup. If you decide to bypass it, you would have to bypass a lot of other things too! We've already had people suggesting it wouldn't be legally required to complete the benchmark! Frankly I find the sentiment behind that remark dangerous and ill thought! Your Gas Safe Registration number is why you can post comment on this very site. I am having real hard time comprehending that people can even suggest such proposal, particularly given that yet another Gas explosion has now happened in another of our country.

 

[Reg Man]

You may be asked your GSR number, from who ever, Nothing to stop people giving a false number or someone else's over the phone, because they are not check upon just noted, if that. Only people who may check are the smarter customers who may phone or go on line to check.

 

[peteheat]

We have to be very practical when proposing changes because what can be seen as one slightly impractical or unreasonable suggestion can have all the good ideas thrown out.

Tamz has posted the pay rates in his area, Mrs Tara Plumbing has posted some very points about after hours work people do.

Look at both and ask why a skilled person taking home less than £400.00 should be stopped using their skills to supplement their income, are we employing people or using the rules to ensure we have what could be seen to be a type of slave labour?

We can't impose our rules on the lives of employees 24 / 7 it's hard enough ensuring they comply with our own business standards while representing us in customers homes and business premises.

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow.

This prevents the truly dangerous parties in the industry from beating the prices down further;

The site labourer / helper who thinks he knows enough to carry out an installation on a Saturday or Sunday.

The DIY who can also be from an associated trade or worse the internet / forum trawling expert who reads posts and says "Ye I can do that".

Bring everyone who is qualified onto the playing field, at least that way the referee can observe fair play or issue penalties where appropriate, it is important to remember that for as long as there are people operating on the sidelines they are outside the system and must be caught before any action can be taken.

A reply to the proposal to allow DIY, friends etc can be answered using the gas explosion highlighted earlier, an explosion in one house damaged how many others?

What happens to the owners of the adjoining properties who may not have home insurance cover?

If the cause was DIY or similar who will meet the cost of restoring the properties or the medical bills?

There are good rules and regulations already in place, maybe it would be better to get all of the interested / monitoring parties together to agree on the code of conduct and then publish a simple easy to understand set of rules (no more than ten or twelve) that the consumer can understand.

Then bring in the fuel suppliers (Gas companies) to take the rules as conditions of supply and to publish the rules on each bill or notification they send to the consumer as they are the ones who have the most contact with the consumer.

 

[Reza]

We have to be very practical when proposing changes because what can be seen as one slightly impractical or unreasonable suggestion can have all the good ideas thrown out.

Tamz has posted the pay rates in his area, Mrs Tara Plumbing has posted some very points about after hours work people do.

Look at both and ask why a skilled person taking home less than £400.00 should be stopped using their skills to supplement their income, are we employing people or using the rules to ensure we have what could be seen to be a type of slave labour?

We can't impose our rules on the lives of employees 24 / 7 it's hard enough ensuring they comply with our own business standards while representing us in customers homes and business premises.

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow.

This prevents the truly dangerous parties in the industry from beating the prices down further;

The site labourer / helper who thinks he knows enough to carry out an installation on a Saturday or Sunday.

The DIY who can also be from an associated trade or worse the internet / forum trawling expert who reads posts and says "Ye I can do that".

Bring everyone who is qualified onto the playing field, at least that way the referee can observe fair play or issue penalties where appropriate, it is important to remember that for as long as there are people operating on the sidelines they are outside the system and must be caught before any action can be taken.

A reply to the proposal to allow DIY, friends etc can be answered using the gas explosion highlighted earlier, an explosion in one house damaged how many others?

What happens to the owners of the adjoining properties who may not have home insurance cover?

If the cause was DIY or similar who will meet the cost of restoring the properties or the medical bills?

There are good rules and regulations already in place, maybe it would be better to get all of the interested / monitoring parties together to agree on the code of conduct and then publish a simple easy to understand set of rules (no more than ten or twelve) that the consumer can understand.

Then bring in the fuel suppliers (Gas companies) to take the rules as conditions of supply and to publish the rules on each bill or notification they send to the consumer as they are the ones who have the most contact with the consumer.

Early report from BBC: The family at the property in which two people died as a result to yesterday's Gas explosion, were carrying out DIY Gas work. Wow!

 

[Reza]

 

[Reza]

If this accident indeed turns out to be DIY related, it should well and truly end this debate. Competent or otherwise, the words such as DIY and doing favours in the new proposed ACOP can and will be taken out of context, the result; death and destruction!

 

[Dotty]

It's s very tragic incident but it is looking as though diy gas work could very well have taken place.

If ever there was an example to reinforce the argument for the reformation of Gas Safety in the UK, this is it!

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/general-off-topic-chat/53216-gas-explosion-notts.html

For those of you who haven't done so, please go and sign the petition.

(Although one of the posts links back to this thread so I may have just created a quantum event in the time/space continuum...........)

 

[Reg Man]

DIY or not? What did you do at the weekend?

 

[Reg Man]

First observations of the scene, Consideration, Look at the flue terminal on the chimney and where it is located. This indicates that it had now or at some point a back boiler and fire in the lounge. Look at the main damage. It appears to be first floor which has blown out. So what gas would be upstairs? Gas fire may be, But doubt it. Gas pipes under floor been tagged may be. So first impression is it may not be gas work, Let the investigators come to an educated conclusion.

 

[Reza]

First observations of the scene, Consideration, Look at the flue terminal on the chimney and where it is located. This indicates that it had now or at some point a back boiler and fire in the lounge. Look at the main damage. It appears to be first floor which has blown out. So what gas would be upstairs? Gas fire may be, But doubt it. Gas pipes under floor been tagged may be. So first impression is it may not be gas work, Let the investigators come to an educated conclusion.

Absolutely Reg Man, I am only quoting what's being reported on the news, but as you have rightly stated it is all alleged at this stage. That said though do you guys think we will hear, through the press, as to the causes of this accident! In most cases, the accident makes it on to our TV sets, but unfortunately post investigation doesn't! May be we should use this opportunity to go to media right now. We know there is much wrong in our industry, I have a petition with 90+ credible signature on it and I am the first engineer who signed it too! Whether this accident was Gas or DIY or whatever else, what difference does it make!!! Your thoughts please.

 

[Reza]

And another thing; " How come I haven't got any Thanks next to my name yet " What does a man have to do to get a Thanks round here!!!

 

[DirksPlumbing]

I suggest open the gates for every qualified person to have their own GSR / RGII registration if they wish to comply with the rules of registration, at least that makes them and their installations legal and subject to all of the rules and responsibilities a registered party must follow...

How should insurance and health and safety regulations blend in with this? How many employees you know having a (serviced) FGA sitting at home ready to be picked up for the weekend job? And so on...

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

I am off on a tangent - I just wrote a blog that might interest you.
Is DIY gas work against the law? Or is it ok in my own home? | Mrs Tara Plumbing
I have been writing the blog for years it is read by "normal" people - lol - not construction industry guys.

I intended to write this for a long time and I was waiting for the ACOP to come out as I did hope it would make the situation clearer.

Resa - doesn't like the ACOP - we all know that!
But it is so so so much better than all the older versions of the same document - they never defined competency.

 

[Reza]

I am off on a tangent - I just wrote a blog that might interest you.
Is DIY gas work against the law? Or is it ok in my own home? | Mrs Tara Plumbing
I have been writing the blog for years it is read by "normal" people - lol - not construction industry guys.

I intended to write this for a long time and I was waiting for the ACOP to come out as I did hope it would make the situation clearer.

Resa - doesn't like the ACOP - we all know that!
But it is so so so much better than all the older versions of the same document - they never defined competency.

You are absolutely right that it makes it clearer! If people were a bit apprehensive before, now they darn well know they don't necessarily need to be Gas Safe before they start fiddling with their Gas installation. This promotes purchase of Gas appliances from B&Q and such like even more, an idea which I most definitely oppose and will campaign against. The word DIY can and will be taken out of context, anyone with a bit of technical knowledge and couple of years of NVQ under their wings will think they can have a go. I cannot for the life of me believe that you are still suggesting DIY Gas work is the way to go! I bet you a penny to a pound HSE will be changing the wording of that farcical regulation quick smart, but hey, I have the email. As for your blog, I am not sure if it'll be very appropriate to give DIY Gas work a positive connotation, Competent or not, I doubt if the families of the victims in the latest Gas explosion will appreciate it.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

In my view finding ways to prevent those who are NOT competent at all is far more important than how many registrations a competent gas engineer has.

I don't know any breakdown of the stats as to who is doing the illegal gas work but just my impression from local chinese whispers I don't know of any Competent gas engineers doing gas work without GSR (although I am sure it happens) and i do know some work outside their listed competences.

I hear of loads and loads of gas work done by people who are NOT gas engineers and NOT plumbers at all. The ones I hear about are done by guys who are in other construction trades.

Perhaps my impression is not representative of the whole picture.

I think some people (DIY at home ) don't realise what they are doing is wrong - so better education - labels on products, Adverts etc could help.
But the general builders should know better - so they are deliberately breaking the law.

 

[Reza]

I hear of loads and loads of gas work done by people who are NOT gas engineers and NOT plumbers at all. The ones I hear about are done by guys who are in other construction trades.

Yes your information is correct.

Perhaps my impression is not representative of the whole picture.

This is also correct, it certainly isn't limited to just builders.

I think some people (DIY at home ) don't realise what they are doing is wrong - so better education - labels on products, Adverts etc could help.
But the general builders should know better - so they are deliberately breaking the law.

Education won't work when the cost of living has gone up 10-fold. More and more DIYers are having a go at mending their boilers. This is a fact.

 

[Reg Man]

Its all about balance. How far do you regulate the industry before it gets an intolerable machine. I think that if all gas appliances sold were registered as the TV's are, this would be a good move. As for the Gas safety (installation and use) Regulations, its quite clear. Can't carry out gas work unless competent to do so. If employed, you must be a member of the approved body (GSR). Outside of that it's up to the HSE and GSR to pursue illegal activity and for HSE to prosecute when necessary. In some respects there is a lot that our industry can do to help these agencies track down and carry out enforcement. I believe that many can't be bothered and many that whinge about the illegals. It may be that many feel that the agencies are not approachable.

 

[lame plumber]

i have reported illegals and its come to nothing as the customer has to be the one reporting the problem for it to be taken further, cheap work equals happy custard! the only way it will ever be controlled is for gas and oil items to be restricted at the point of sale, no gsr no sale. easily monitored by noting the gsr no at sale time.

regards competent people doing wend work, if they want to then get up and pay for your own reg no, I do why cant they, why should they work on their employers tickets, additionally if they are doing wend work are they insured, I doubt it. it will take some more explosions before anythings done, ie the whole fire safety regs were only looked at after many people died in Brighton years ago, Im sorry to say but less than 10 isnt going to do anything.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

...... I cannot for the life of me believe that you are still suggesting DIY Gas work is the way to go! ..... As for your blog, I am not sure if it'll be very appropriate to give DIY Gas work a positive connotation, .....

I think most people will think of DIY gas work as being done at home by someone in the family who is not a full time professional "gas man".

I don't think I have given any promotion or positive connotation to DIY gas work anywhere.
Either you are mis reading me
Or
I don't make myself clear (that happens).

But My father in law who fitted and repaired Agas for Forever but retired now did not suddenly stop being gas competent on 1 April 2013 when his GSR was not renewed. He has given up his gas customers but if he had a gas AGA in his own home he should still be able to service it this summer himself.

 

[Reza]

I think most people will think of DIY gas work as being done at home by someone in the family who is not a full time professional "gas man".

I don't think I have given any promotion or positive connotation to DIY gas work anywhere.
Either you are mis reading me
Or
I don't make myself clear (that happens).

But My father in law who fitted and repaired Agas for Forever but retired now did not suddenly stop being gas competent on 1 April 2013 when his GSR was not renewed. He has given up his gas customers but if he had a gas AGA in his own home he should still be able to service it this summer himself.

The whole of the UK's boundaries goe far beyond the area of your locality. You want to take a look at some of the areas where DIY and illegal Gas works take place at an alarming rate. The recorded figure is over 1/4 million a year. How many of those could you quantify as DIY! It would be a mammoth of an administrative task. The only reasonable and logical option is to fall in line, or we'll end up with a two tear system that cannot be controlled and people will end up dying as a result of it.

 

[Reg Man]

The whole of the UK's boundaries goe far beyond the area of your locality. You want to take a look at some of the areas where DIY and illegal Gas works take place at an alarming rate. The recorded figure is over 1/4 million a year. How many of those could you quantify as DIY! It would be a mammoth of an administrative task. The only reasonable and logical option is to fall in line, or we'll end up with a two tear system that cannot be controlled and people will end up dying as a result of it.

Sounds like you are pushing for an authoritarian system. Tara's Dad did not become incompetent when he hung up his manometer.

 

[Reza]

Sounds like you are pushing for an authoritarian system. Tara's Dad did not become incompetent when he hung up his manometer.

I'm not pointing at any specific case or person. I make my point general across the country. A two tear system will result in cases similar to Newark. Now any system that stops that, I welcome. DIY in Gas is a bad idea and promotes Illegal Gas works.