OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[ShaunCorbs]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

 

[trf0412]

Get him to re do it as your not happy better now than later

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

 

[ShaunCorbs]

well that would worrie me to the point of sacking him if hes happy with that hes defo no plumber

 

[trf0412]

Right... sounds like I need to have a chat with him, even if it's an awkward one. Just so I am fully clued up before asking him to rectify things, could someone give me a list of what they would do to put this right? Would the following sort things?

1) Cut out and replace the tee with an elbow (so shower waste is kept separate from basin waste initially)
2) Take basin waste through 2 joists (although this would require drilling 2 more holes) before joining it back in with the shower waste (so that it has a fall on in before it meets the waste coming from shower)
3) Clip pipes to joists

Or would it be best to avoid step 2 by trying to get a fall on the basin waste before it joins up with the shower waste?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

hope this helps

both can have independent falls and not tied by each others t in position

you could ask him does he have an nvq in plumbing if he doesnt hes a handy man and not a plumber

 

[trf0412]

Yes, that helps a lot - thanks!

Such a simple, elegant solution and one which easily allows the fall on the basin waste to be independent of the fall on the shower waste. (Now I've seen the suggested fix, I'm amazed why he didn't simply do this in the first place?!). However, this will only work if the pipe going across the joists doesn't start so high up as to rule out getting enough fall from the basin... if it does, then I'm not sure what we'll do.

So, in this set-up, would it be right to use the same tee that he already used (i.e. one that would direct the flow from the shower down to the right)?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Doing it correctly is another matter

Should be more than enough might need to slot the joist the basin end but other than that should have a good fall on it

No as you can't unglue the fittings

 

[trf0412]

Makes me think he's not a plumber anyone can put pushfit pipe together And glue waste pipe

Hmm, maybe I should just take up floor and do it myself!

might need to slot the joist the basin end

Yes, I thought that might be necessary.

No as you can't unglue the fittings

Hehe! Sorry, I didn't mean reusing the exact same one, I just meant the same design.

 

[Chuck]

Hmm... I can try, but I know it'll be an awkward conversation. I already asked him whether he thought the lack of a fall would pose a problem and he basically said "it's fine how I've done it, just trust me please".

Tell your plumber that you have had your attention drawn to some defects that need rectifying. Make it clear that either he fixes it, and to a proper standard, or you will get another company who does understand what plumbing installed 'with reasonable skill and care' (use exactly those words) means.

Your only decision, which largely depends on how much you value your own time, is whether to try and get the person who installed the mess in the photographs to fix it or cut your losses and get someone else to do it again right.

I'm old enough to have learned you can't get blood out of a stone. In your circumstances I would write off any sunk costs to experience and get a reputable trader to redo the work to a more appropriate standard.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Also you will need an anti vac trap on the basin

I wouldn't do it my self either plumber does it or he doesn't get paid for the waste pipe simple and if he choose not to change the design of it by by get another plumber in

 

[trf0412]

So, Chuck votes I sack him, Shaun votes I give him a chance to put things right. So far it's a tie!

I'll see how responsive he is to the idea of rectifying things and then guess I'll go from there, as generally speaking he has been quite willing to listen and do what I've asked. Having said that, I should point out that one of the things I asked him to do was reinforce the joists where he was cutting holes - if I hadn't asked him to he wouldn't have done that, so perhaps that's not a good sign either?

Another issue I have is where the pipes clash with the shower trap... instead of re-running the pipes to avoid this, which may have needed another small notch, he chose instead to cut out one massive notch! As it's now covered I can see how deep it goes, but I'd guess from the photo it's easily 50% of the joist height!

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Yep not good upto you tbh do you still trust him if you don't by bt there's the door if you do see if he will listen to your concerns

 

[Ric2013]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

 

[trf0412]

Look up the rules on joist notching and drilling. 50%! I'm going to stick my neck out and say you can push the boundaries a bit, as the joists could well be over-engineered in the first place (and sometimes there's no choice), but a notch should be 1/8 of the joist height maximum...

Yep, I've seen them which is why (i) I was so shocked to see what he's done and (ii) I insisted on him reinforcing the holes (no idea how much it will help, but it will certainly be better than nothing).

Shared waste:

Let's assume shared section is only used by one appliance at the time as you don't tend to shower while using basin. So it's okayish that both wastes can't flow properly at the same time. Most likely problems are that washbasin draining will throw a slug of water down which might cause pressure at the shower waste, pushing the foul air (and some water possibly) into the shower tray, particularly if the shared section is in any way restictive. Or one appliance could suck the water out of the trap on the other and foul air will enter the bathroom. Or, weirdly, both could happen.

Thanks for this explanation. Very helpful. So, in an ideal world, should each appliance have its own waste which runs all the way to the soil pipe? Or is it ok for them to join up further downstream?

 

[Guitarjon]

Cricky, I was going to write a long winded post about how many things look wrong with those pictures but it's been covered and not fair to bang on about it, especially as it's not the poster doing the work. Certainly no plumber with actually knowledge on regs or qualifications has done any of that. If it is somebody with conpentancy they need reporting and pecious work checking out.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm making a call here.

The OP has done the work himself.

Claims not to have much knowledge on plumbing - but seems to have all the right answers. - Even cocky ones.

Claims the plumber who did the work said - 'Please trust me'
Then goes on to ask whether or not to sack the plumber and claims a tie between the outcome of 2 posts.

Then states that the drain can be repaired by removing plaster ceiling on the floor below - that makes economic sense.
15 minutes to repair at this stage or 25+ hours of work to access, replace and make good ceiling below.

I doubt any plumber would fit a tee like that and run a drain from a basin with reverse fall - for the sake of saving the cost of 1 bend.

This thread has had hairs on it since the 1st post.

Anyone agree?

 

[Stigster]

Yes, that helps a lot - thanks!

Such a simple, elegant solution and one which easily allows the fall on the basin waste to be independent of the fall on the shower waste. (Now I've seen the suggested fix, I'm amazed why he didn't simply do this in the first place?!). However, this will only work if the pipe going across the joists doesn't start so high up as to rule out getting enough fall from the basin... if it does, then I'm not sure what we'll do.

So, in this set-up, would it be right to use the same tee that he already used (i.e. one that would direct the flow from the shower down to the right)?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner but Shaun's drawing shows where the extra 6 (ish) inches of pipe and the elbow will go as I'm sure you've worked out now.

 

[trf0412]

I'm making a call here.

The OP has done the work himself.

Claims not to have much knowledge on plumbing - but seems to have all the right answers. - Even cocky ones.

Claims the plumber who did the work said - 'Please trust me'
Then goes on to ask whether or not to sack the plumber and claims a tie between the outcome of 2 posts.

Then states that the drain can be repaired by removing plaster ceiling on the floor below - that makes economic sense.
15 minutes to repair at this stage or 25+ hours of work to access, replace and make good ceiling below.

I doubt any plumber would fit a tee like that and run a drain from a basin with reverse fall - for the sake of saving the cost of 1 bend.

This thread has had hairs on it since the 1st post.

Anyone agree?

Hmm... very interesting accusation! I can assure you I did not do the work and everything I've said is true including what the plumber said to me, but it makes no difference to me whether you believe me or not.

I would however be interested to know what "cocky answers" you are referring to?

You may doubt whether a plumber would fit a tee like that, but those are the facts.

Regarding fixing from below through the ceiling, I may not have explained the full story, but the ceiling below already has a strip taken out of it and will be patched up and skimmed in the next few weeks, so not as drastic as you make out. Also, since the shower tray has already been stuck down, access from above is already restricted.

 

[trf0412]

Sorry I didn't get back sooner but Shaun's drawing shows where the extra 6 (ish) inches of pipe and the elbow will go as I'm sure you've worked out now.

Thanks for getting back to me. I actually took a screenshot of Shaun's drawing and showed it to our plumber and he agreed to implement the changes (although didn't feel it was strictly necessary). We now have a good fall on the first small section of pipe crossing the joist from the basin waste, and the tee and elbow at the shower end have been sorted, so things are looking much better! Unfortunately, the section between the two elbows still has a very slight uphill incline, but I'm hoping I can reduce this by propping the pipe up at one end with a piece of wood or something.

Incidentally, the plumber chose to implement these fixes from below, so that idea clearly wasn't as mad as it sounded. As I said, the pipes were already partly visible from below and I just made a bigger opening.

 

[Best]

Sorry, but I wouldn't have that guy do any more work and I would personally have all his work removed. He must be a novice to plumbing.
I have just looked again at the original photo and everything on view is wrong.
Way below a minimum acceptable standard of work.

 

[Ric2013]

So, in an ideal world, should each appliance have its own waste which runs all the way to the soil pipe?

Yes

Or is it ok for them to join up further downstream?

Depends on the circumstances as we don't live in an ideal world.

 

[oz-plumber]

Way below a minimum acceptable standard of work.

Bar the fact it is way below minimum acceptable standard of work, it doesn't and never will comply with plumbing regulations.

I would love to see photo's of the amendments from below.

And even after the rectifications, the 'plumber' still has an uphill flow from the basin to the tee.
Basin wastes require a minimum fall of 25mm per metre.
I wonder what the reasoning behind that is - maybe they haven't updated the minimum fall requirements on drains for more than a hundred years or so.

I can't believe the OP is still defending his plumber.

 

[Best]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.
Seems to be a very decent and forgiving person.
I doubt if I would get away with that work for many of my customers.

 

[Chuck]

I wish all my customers were as easy going as the OP.

There's always two sides to every story. The missing side to this one is what was agreed between the 'plumber' and the OP and at what price.

Most of the professionals who advise on this forum work at the high-end of the market, enjoy their trade and want to keep learning and help others learn. They are typically properly trained and qualified, charge what the job needs to cost to make a reasonable living and won't cut corners.

But don't forget that at the other end of the market there are people who are pretty much working for food and are being ruthlessly exploited by those willing to employ them.

 

[trf0412]

Here's a photo from below. It's not easy to see from this photo where there is a good fall and where there isn't, but this is somewhat of an improvement.