OK for waste to run uphill a short distance?

[FG28]

heres a pic of a resin tray i had to take out as it had failed , installed on chipboard floor and siliconed down
The end result after approx 14 months in a rented property
Up to you mate

 

[Best]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.
As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

 

[oz-plumber]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

 

[Best]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

 

[FG28]

Yes, it is so unfair and the time factor and inconvenience to the OP is a problem. I just don't see why plumbers doing work like that with clearly no planning or much care should go unchallenged.

Ever since john guest popped up everyones a plumber , thats the problem ,

 

[FG28]

 

[oz-plumber]

The 'Plumber' who did that work is not a plumber.

The worst plumber - on a bad day - could not do what this 'Plumber' did.
The first picture of the drain says it all.
-Drains falling the wrong way and the junction incorrectly installed.

The fact is, the 'plumber' who did this has absolutely no idea what he is doing and definitely no experience in the trade.
He could never have worked under anyone to train and teach him how to do things properly.

If you asked people in the street what way should the water flow through this junction, I reckon 75% of them would give you the correct answer by looking at the fitting - and this bloke installed it the wrong way - that says alot

Whats worse is that he has unleashed his inexperience on an unsuspecting homeowner and it will be the homeowner that will have to foot the bills for repairs.

What do you guy's reckon it would cost to put everything right at this stage.

Let alone accessing everything in 12 to 18 months to redo it then.

 

[trf0412]

Trouble is another plumber would most likely not want to just do improvements to parts of that job. It would be better for the entire job to be done again so that a new plumber will get paid for all of it and feel happy to guarantee their work. I know, I have been there trying to fix and alter bits and pieces in bad work done in brand new bathrooms by others and it always annoyed me.

I'd be happy for a new plumber to start from scratch, except for the hot and cold pipework going to the shower/bath/basin/toilet, as these have now been plastered over and I'm not sure ripping them out and having to replaster all over again will help much? (...assuming they are all done ok). But redoing the wastes would make sense, hopefully not requiring cutting any more holes or notches.

As to the question of how you agree a payment for part work between you and your plumber, should you or him decide to not continue, it is up to him to give you a bill, but also you can decide what to pay of it. Any materials useable plus any labour costs that were of acceptable work should be paid, but nothing else.

Thanks - I'll have to give this some thought. I've now told him I will be finding someone else to do the remedial works and finish the job. He wasn't very happy about me questioning things, of course, and insisted that that is how he always lays shower trays and assured me I wouldn't have a single problem (...and that he was so sure of this that he would guarantee to come back to fix everything at his cost if anything went wrong... etc, etc). Anyway, he's asking for about 55% of what he quoted for the plumbing element of the job (luckily for me, plastering, tiling etc were itemised on the quote) for having completed the 1st fix. That sounds about right, in the sense that the 2nd fix is less labour (or that's the impression I get), so in principle I would be happy to pay him what he's asked for. My main issue is if the shower tray cracks when it gets removed to be re-fitted. Should I deduct the replacement cost from what I give him? And since he didn't finish the job, he didn't get round to disposing of the waste, which I guess will not be my responsibility.

 

[trf0412]

I'm actually starting to feel sorry for the OP now.

Thanks! Feeling a bit sorry for myself too...

 

[trf0412]

Any suggestions how to go about removing the shower tray that's been stuck down? I'm inclined to rectify this part of the mess myself, and leave the new plumber (once I've got a replacement sorted) to just connect up the waste since he'll have access from below.

If I manage to remove the tray, I will also lay a new section of flooring (since old plumber has cut out a much larger section than permitted by the installation instructions). Would it be ok to put down 18mm marine ply and leave the other half of the floor with OSB? The reason is the bath has already been screwed to the floor and siliconed to the wall and I would prefer to avoid disrupting this if possible.

 

[Ric2013]

I once installed a (2nd hand - customer supplied) shower tray on a wooden plinth using 'sticks like' on the basis that sticks like will go hard enough to avoid flexing, unlike silicone. Would people say this is wrong? And are we sure the plumber sat his tray on silicone and not gripfill, no more nails, or similar?

 

[Best]

I have installed most trays with plaster or sand and cement, but I must confess I have also used tile adhesive or silicone on some, but only where suitable. I think silicone would be absolutely fine if just bedding a tray that just needed the surface very slight irregularities evened out, but otherwise dead level surface.
New and old timber moves and dries, so doesn't matter what you do, trays will move

 

[trf0412]

I can't be sure how many irregularities the tray has or how minor/major they are, but from the last 2 posts it's starting to sound like silicone isn't necessarily as bad as I thought people were saying it was?

Is the main issue simply the fact that not bedding it in to sand & cement would void the warranty? Or is the tray significantly more likely to crack if installed on silicone? It would be interesting to know the statistics re. how many correctly vs incorrectly installed trays crack...

 

[Best]

Most trays that crack aren't properly bedded on anything.
Warranty will be void if not to MIs, but that doesn't mean tray will give trouble

 

[trf0412]

Well, I don't think our tray is properly bedded on silicone either. From below I can poke a thin bit of wood in between the shower tray and the flooring, so there's definitely no support in those places, and definitely no support in the big waste cut-out he did. Sounds like it's not worth taking the risk of not fixing it... but how do I go about removing the tray currently stuck down with silicone?! Not looking forward to this...

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Lift and hope for the best pry bar works the best

 

[Old Account]

View attachment 30873

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

 

[Best]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

 

[Old Account]

Prise the tray up slowly and carefully. Maybe using a wood saw to cut some of the silicone as space will allow.
But don't worry if you do end up slightly scratching or causing damage to the tray, as just take the cost of the tray off the plumbers bill. He fitted it wrong, he should pay

The whole job should come out of his pocket. Each pipe and joint as well as each minute for the other engineer ( qualified ) should be paid from his pocket.

 

[trf0412]

Looks like lucky like tried shooting at the shower valve not too bad the first fix
Why would you hire such a diyer ? It's more than bodged up. Ideally you want him to come back to sort that out but better off getting someone who knows what he is doing and get rid of this guy. I also would not pay, I would rather take money of him to put things right. It's an horrendous job, unbelievable what people try to cover

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

 

[Best]

Oh dear - What's the issue with the shower valve?

So, let's say I kick up a fuss and refuse to pay what he's asking or only pay part of what he's asking... where do I stand practically/legally? In other words, could he try to take action against me to force me to pay? He just doesn't seem to recognise the issues I've raised and thinks everything he's done is fine, so I can tell he wouldn't take kindly to me deciding to deduct anything.

But if I do, how much should I deduct for him not having disposed of the waste (currently heaped up in front garden)? How much do trade customers get charged to dispose of a bath/toilet/sink and a lot of tiles and other rubble?

He could take you to Small Claims Court for any amount extra he thinks he is due but you could fight it or also claim of him.
He would have to prove his work was satisfactory etc, likewise you would have to prove the work was badly done and therefore unacceptable. A qualified plumbers report on the work would be enough evidence for you to take to court to counter your first plumber.
I would take plenty of photos of all the work,the rubble, etc, left not taken away, plus stage by stage removal of faults, like shower tray base.
Manufacturers instructions, building regs for evidence and any quotes your plumber gave you. Judges love plenty of evidence.
I don't think you will have a problem with the plumber as he will know he is in the wrong, but best you gather evidence now and retain it.
Keep any communications - letter, emails, texts, etc, polite and reasonable, as you also need those as proof of your objections, so have copies.
My take on all this is your plumber probably deserves to be paid for any labour done correctly, - so whatever cost for removing old bathroom suite, plus some money for basic labour and not too much extra. You really need what you were going to pay him, to be paid to another plumber

 

[trf0412]

Thanks - very helpful advice. Re. paying him for "any labour done correctly", that's where there's going to be a fair amount of disagreement as in his mind everything was done correctly!

I'm going to go back to the person who recommended him to me to see if they know whether he has any qualifications, because even I'm starting to question whether he has any plumbing qualifications or just learnt on the job!

 

[Old Account]

As @Best has said, take all relevant pictures. At the claim court it's important what you can proof not what you know or have heard. The more you can proof the better it's for you. Everyone can tell it is a bodge job and not done to a satisfactory standard. I would refuse to pay, wouldn't even pay a penny until it's put right. I'd rather take him to the claim court if he is not willing to sort the pipework out. I always take pictures because not only builders doing rough jobs you've got more rough customers than cowboy builders. And those people like to go to claim courts and trying to get things done for free. However, in your case it is clearly the builders fault. Good luck

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

 

[oz-plumber]

Might be worth having an independent plumber come in and see what he thinks and how much it's going to cost to put it right then - that off his full quote and your left with what you should pay him

In that case the 'Plumber?' that did the work will be owing the OP a truck load of cash.

I can;t believe the OP was willing to pay 55% of the quote to the 'Plumber?' .. and then stare he is going to remove the shower tray and redo it.

This is getting more weird by the moment.

I wish to retract my previous statement that I am starting to feel sorry for the OP.

I'm getting back to my original thoughts that he is doing the work himself.
In that case, he should get a qualified plumber in to sort out the 'mess'