Signing work off?

[Reza]

It's taking each case on its own merit that separates us from a standardisation that this industry severely lacks. I class something NCS, you class it as AR and GSR classes it as ID! No sir, we need all to read from the same hymn sheet.

 

[lame plumber]

gas safe produced a good tb explaining how you have to approach this issue. I wont do it unless I can follow the tb word for word and it wont be cheap. Re clout everytime i have approached gas safe re illegal work the customer hasnt complained so no further issue in their mind, despite my knowing the builder installing it was illegal!

 

[leethegasman]

I did a boiler quote for a customer and it turned out a relation of the customer was gas safe for a company.and did it at the weekend.i then receive a call from the customer could I register the boiler as it was stopping the sale of the house.i told customer I could not register the boiler as this should be done by the installer.but told customer that I could inspect the installation and issue a homeowner safety report.

 

[SafeGasInstall]

I agree 100% not to sign anyone's work !
I always answer the Question can you with NO .
today I had a call someone I know who used to do power flush for the company I used to sub
" stan what it's f29 on a new Vaillant ?"
me : why
he : " I fitted a new boiler "
me: you fitted a boiler you ain't gsr let alone knowing how boiler works
he : stan don't worry
me : you will go to prison if anything goes wrong
he : stan do you know what a f 29 is ?
me: I think no gas
he : thank you and don't worry about me
this man could not tel which is flow or return pipe on a boiler and hi fitted a boiler ....

 

[tamz]

It isn't illegal to sign work of but it is frowned upon and not recommended.
Personally i have never signed anything off for anyone, ever and never will.
But think of how lots of the the big site or contracting companies work. One gsr guy for 20 installers. The work is all done and dusted (and most often fired up) then the one guy goes around doing the checks and signing it off. Maybe they should clamp down on that carry on but it won't happen.

 

[mitchellcook]

Back last October I was sub'd to work on a site where we fitted about 40 boilers. On about the second day the boss asked me to commission/sign off the boiler and unvented cylinder. I was new on site and said yes.

The boss' younger brother fitted it, who was fresh out of college and gs. I watched him earlier trying to do a tt with his regin gauge with the bung still in one end!

I done a tt, he said "don't worry the tt was sound". I said no, i'm going to fully commission it as normal. Surprise, surprise 3mbar leak on boiler union.

 

[lame plumber]

only way to stop illegal work is to stop selling them the kit, bit hard with ebay etc but not impossible, just takes a government minister with some balls, something you dont see a lot of now Maggies gone

 

[tamz]

Although i was no fan of the woman i admit she had balls to stand up for what she believed in.

Does anyone really think the powers that be are interested in saving a dozen or so lives a year when there is money to be made. They certainly won't stop waging war on half the world with all the deaths and casualties that brings about but it keeps someone in work and makes moiney.
No government of any persuasion will ever ban the sale of gas products unless some MP's kids die from a diy or unregistered fitter and they take it up as a personal crusade.

 

[Derek Hardman]

It isn't illegal to sign work of but it is frowned upon and not recommended.

 

[AWheating]

you need to ask yourself the question "do i know that the person who did the installation is correctly register'd with the correct qualifications?"

So working on a building site, if you know that the installation was done by a competent person then i see no problem with commissioning an appliance and system. If you dont know the details of who did the work then your in a grey area and you should request the information from the company your working for. In my eyes the plumbing company is legally responsible if they have allowed illegal work, and they should have records of who did what work.

it was alot better when the benchmark had a section for you to put the installers name and gs details and then your details as the commissioning engineer. why did they stop this?

so in the eyes of the law, for you to cover yourself i guess you need to know and prove that the installtion was done by a competent, register'd person.

me personally i would never do such a thing. Most people who do such work could not give a carp about the standard of the work, pipe sizing etc..... as there name is not going against it.

 

[Reza]

As you quoted, It isn't illegal to sign off works. Nowhere in the GSIUR would you find that, but every job you sign off (A) You are taking the risk of someone else's work knowing they are not even Gas trained, (B) You are promoting illegal works and thereby taking our industry one step closer to the cliff.

 

[Derek Hardman]

It IS illegal to sign off work done by an unregistered fitter, but not to sign off the work of a registered fitter.

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Our proposal was submitted to GSR, they agreed there were interesting points, but out of their remit. I'd like to see Gas Safety regulations enforced. No grey areas, I don't want to legalise a work that an illegal fitter had done, by checking it and ticking it for the sake of customer having heat and hot water. If I did, I would never get rid of illegal fitters.

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

 

[Linkyplumb]

The way I see it:

Why should I sign off work by someone, who obviously is actively seeking financial reward from a customer. If they want to earn fitting boilers, then go get their acs, fga and calibration etc, extra insurance, gas safe reg. the list goes on.

Incase you are unsure, I never sign off anyone elses works

 

[Dotty]

RESA
Can you you start new thread to post the proposal you made to GSR. I would like to see it, I am sure other would too.

This is it here Debs

http://www.ukplumbersforums.co.uk/g...orum/52767-petition-reform-uk-gas-safety.html

 

[Masood]

The whole part of sighning it off means you check they havnt made any mistakes. so if a customer of yours had the gas disconnected and you had to go in after and re commission the appliances - you wouldnt do it?

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

 

[Dannypipe]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally and fined £600, made to pay costs of £200, and given a 6 month suspended sentence. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.

So it's cost him £800, and he's has a suspended (or not at all really) sentence. Yeah that'll deter em!

Stop suspending the prison sentences and it would practically stop over night.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

That's a very different scenario, and you make it clear on the quote & invoice that you're recommissioning existing appliances with a visual check. Commissioning a new appliance means taking responsibility for the quality of the installation, IMO, and that can't be a visual.

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

 

[Dannypipe]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

 

[tamz]

What annoys me, month in, month out is the little articles in the Gas Safe magazine.

It will always be along the lines of: Jake Scumbag, of Brighton has been found guilty of installing a boiler illegally. Mr Scumbags install was inspected by Gas Safe inspectors who found 5 faults, including 2 ID's.
He was removed from court and tied to a nearly lamp post beside a pile of broken bricks and offcuts of lead pipe. A hospital spokesperson said Mr Scumbag is unlikely to ever walk again far less go back on the tools, so we got a satisfactory result.

Maybe that would work:smile:

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

 

[Nostrum]

I agree, not that I would sign of others work. Every time I get asked I say what's the benefit to me? I spend out all the money on quals and expenses only to be offered £50 to write out a certificate?

but I do agree, we walk into houses every day without knowing the standard of work within them. A few months ago I went to a house which transco had capped. Turned out to be an end feed coupling that had never been soldered, the washing machine had banged into it. The house was 16 years old and this pipe was in from new.

 

[GasmanxxxR1]

Im not making an argument for signing off others work, as stated before i have never done it as i have enough of my own. Im making an argument about the excuses that are offered for not signing off work.

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

 

[leethegasman]

Because of many factors. You can't see how well they hung the boiler for a start.

I've been to big radiators that have fallen off the wall, fixed with 1" 10's. You don't know if they flushed the system properly, you don't know if there are any hidden comp joints on the gas line, unless you can inspect it all.

I once found a drop on a gas line, when I tracked it down, it was an old green joint, that the installer had forgotten to blow in. No solder at all, just the flux stopping a leak.

I like to know its my work that I'm putting my name to.

Are you saying if you do a boiler swop with the correct size pipework laid in existing floor walls etc that you would uncover all pipework to inspect in case there was a joint not soldered .i do a TT .we have all done work at existing property's where the TT has passed and then come across a unsoldered joint I can not see how we can be responsible for work that is existing all we can do is a visual inspection and TT .

 

[Masood]

why cant you check the quality of an install with a visual inspection.

I have worked for big companies in the past where say one guy goes sick during a job, and you are asked to finish off. Now the other guy has hung the boiler, connected the gas and flue. I would TT, check the gas run through its length, inspect the flue and commission the boiler with all the checks that entails. Are you saying thats illegal.

I'm not saying it's illegal. I'm saying I wouldn't want to just do a cursory examination. The testing you are describing is in-depth, would take time and you'd want paying good money for it. I've got no problem with that. The thread was asking whether you'd sign off someone else's work. I wouldn't unless I knew and trusted them.

Now with the above situation in mind, the same senario, however you are self employed and your customers last gsr has gone sick, gone bust whatever, are you saying that you cant sign off that boiler. I would like to think that most gsr have the wits about them to do so

It's not a matter of having the wits about you to do it, it's how thoroughly you check. In your scenario, let's say the custard has paid the previous GSR most of his money. They want you to sign it off cheap. If they're willing to pay for a proper inspection and commissioning, no problem. If they want a quick glance and a signature, no way.