Signing work off?

[Masood]

The act of signing off other work on a technical basis is no different from the work we carry out on a day to day basis.

I disagree. A service, or LSC carries a certain expectation, as does a repair. Commissioning a new appliance carries higher expectations, so the onus is on whoever commissions it to carry greater responsibility. If something is wrong with the install and, say, the manufacturer's warranty is void because of it, it's your name on the benchmark, your responsibility to put it right. I'd want a lot more than a visual to take that burden on.

 

[Reza]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

 

[lame plumber]

Let’s not beat around the bush lads. If one signs off an illegal fitters job, then he or she has betrayed every one of us and the industry at large.

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

 

[Reza]

Here's a tip. When you do a tightness test, do you record your result! If you use an analyser to do this, you can print off and have proof that you have done a test and it stood up to standard at the time. Otherwise it's your word against the inspector and the court rather take the advice of the inspector. Kane units can have an optional wifi chip installed for £30, then your unit can talk to any other wifi device. With a bit of thought you could log these and keep them for a rainy day.

 

[Reza]

hear where your coming from, but if an innocent custard has an illegally installed system, I have gone in and followed the advice on the tb to cover my bum, and its cost the owner almost as much for labour as a normal boiler swap, if not a bit more, as I am covering the whole setup as well once youve signed. done it once, the other times i was asked they didnt like the quote

Having been asked to sign off illegals on other occassions, I reported them to gas safe and trading standards, to have no effect at all as the customers were happy and not complaining, in one case building control went in to look at a big refurb, but were told all the gas work was original and not touched, depite them having asked me to sign of new lpg supplies and cookers etc!!! It wont stop until they stop selling kit to the illegals!

It's all in the pipe line. I hope you have signed our petition! http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/gas-safety-in-uk.html

 

[lame plumber]

of course

 

[Dannypipe]

You dont know these things when your re lighting appliances or carrying out services. Dont know how well theyve hung the boiler is pretty lame argument, give the thing a tug and see

No but servicing is different to registering. You are registering to say you installed it, so if there is an issue it's down to you.

It may seem lame, and you argue to give it a tug, but I have seen fixings fail, and like I said, I've seen radiators, and towel rails that have fallen off the wall. So I'm not going to put my name to something that I haven't personally hung on the wall. I don't really care if you think it's lame or not. It's up to me.

I don't judge you for your opinion. It might change one day, and so might mine. But personally I think it's wrong to sign others work off. Just look at the 'hall of shame' on here. There are some really useless people out there, banging in terrible work. Not all of that terribleness will be on show!

 

[Reza]

Some of you may know I started a campaign in the hope that one day we get rid of all illegal Gas works in our country. I have found too many people, authorities alike, approaching me and telling me tails on all sorts. I tell you something now, you sign off someone's work following which an accident happens. It really doesn't matter that it's not your fault, you could not imagine how much trouble you are in. As I said, I really have been told too many stories. I got one engineer in Liverpool, left the work in progress over night but didn't cap the supply, even though he took the fuse out and turned the Gas off at the ECV and the boiler, boy is he paying a heavy price right now. We are now calling for tightening of the legislation and asking for raising the standards. Enforcement of the legislation, that's what we are calling for. By the time we are done and if we can make a difference, you know what is to be expected of us and if we put a foot wrong, well !! Looking at this issue so simplistically is easy because you haven't been in trouble with GSR, I haven't either, but we are going to have to practice what we've preached and take every steps in ensuring the standards are met.

 

[hammers4spanner]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

 

[Mrs Tara Plumbi]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

It is the GSR guy who is responsible - and in court - if things go wrong.
It may be OK for him to sign it off if he supervised the work and checked the work and is 100% confident that it is as good as if he did it himself.

I also thing we pay twice the rate of Public liability compared to other construction trades except roofers & ground workers.
We spend a load of money & time on training, on going training and GSR but prices are driven so low.

We rarely win straightforward heating jobs - we don't expect to - we're not too expensive but there are other guys who are too cheap! I can't believe what some people are willing to work for.
Perhaps they aren't paying tax and then we are VAT registered and perhaps tjose other guys aren't
All so unfair! Rant over!

BTW we are really really busy, just not with gas work - and what does that say about the going rates for gas work.

 

[Reza]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

Then contact Robert Briscall on 07968 177223 Regional Investigation Officer, Gas Safe Register. Look it's simple. If you'd get burgled you would call the cops wouldn't you! How is this any different, those who sign off work steal from every other engineer who do everything to the text. I wouldn't think twice, shop them in, that's what I say. The industry needs a methodical cleansing.

 

[leethegasman]

I meant the original commissioning when the boiler is installed, in that instance No, not anymore, I will turn it off and tell the customer to get the original fitter back to commission, and tell them that if they wont return, to contact GSR.

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

 

[Derek Hardman]

I may have miss understood this one.are you saying that every boiler service you do you you ask the customer for the commissioning paper work and also confirm that the boiler has been registered.and if this is not provided you turn the appliance off.
Because I would think a large amount of boilers are not registered.the last time I was on my Gas refresher there was a class of 8 and they all seamed to no what they where doing except for one.the trainer stated talking about Alpha getting out of doing warranty work if the boiler was not registered, which I agree with.i and one other where the only company in the room that registered appliances.so in that one room there must have been hundreds of appliances being fitted illegal. that at some point one of us will be asked to service.i did say to them all what is the point in you being gas safe if you don't register the appliance.

Yes, these days I turn them off, have commissioned them in the past, if there is no benchmark commissioning, I check if it is registered, if not it goes off, the only way to stop the public having cowboys doing gas work is by making them understand that the end result id inconvenience and more expense, if everyone did it the same way the illegal installs would reduce significantly.

 

[Nostrum]

I can see where you are heading and I think we all want to be able to compete equally with other companies with the same overheads, and not see the dodgy installs and dangerous situations. Having said that though, we abide by the regulations in force as set out by the big cheese who made them regulation. We have to abide by these rules as much as the cowboys.

With that in mind, I cant see what authority we have turning off a perfectly safe appliance because you found it hadn't been notified. Technically you have a duty of care to the occupant in the house, and whilst we obviously can't ignore the safety issues, are we in a position to cut off some bodies heat and hot water?

Also, is it our job to police this industry in the way we feel fit at the time?

There will be times where gas safe fail to log the notification properly, or where a rule abiding company forget to register etc. The call for better enforcement is a good one, but who is going to do this, and at what cost to the registered installer and equally the customer?

I think education is a big part in this, how many times do you get asked for your gas safe card? I can think of a handful of times over the 14 years I've been in the industry, most of those were when I was fresh out of apprenticeship and looked about 12 (still blessed with youthful looks) shock style advertising like they use for cigarettes or seat belt adverts would help.

 

[Derek Hardman]

Capita allready have a system in place which could be used to licence gas appliances, they use it for tv licencing, that would be the best way, and for insurance companies to demand a valid service cert with the annual policy.
I try my best to determine if any attemot at all has been made to register and commission properly before I act, when nothing has been completed it is not usually a kosher job and I treat it as such. In other words, I dont take any risks.

 

[Nostrum]

Definitely agree with insurance companies being more forceful about annual servicing, not sure if they do void policies on that basis, I actually tell people they can as I'm sure they would if the boiler caught fire etc

licensing gas appliances will never happen, also it goes back to another post I made re: DIY gas. There is nothing to stop somebody fitting their own boiler, then getting building control to sign it off. The regulations only state you must be competent to do so. As of yet there is no definitive answer for proving competence, only incompetence.

 

[AWheating]

most home insurance policys have something in them stating that poor maintenence can result in the insurance being void. How many have there home electrics checked every 10years ?? may void a claim if you have a electrical fire.

 

[leethegasman]

Their are plumbers who are not gsr fitting boilers gas meters and doing a TT over the country on new builds and then the gsr fitter on site signs it all off .
Whats your take on that ??

I worked on new builds for 12 years and all the lads where always GSR and it is not unusual for these kind of company's to have someone else GSR checking over the work.

 

[Reza]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

 

[Dannypipe]

While we're on the subject of insurance, for any of you oil guys.

It's sometimes worth telling your customer that unless they declare on their building insurance that they are storing oil on their property they may not be covered in the event of a tank leak. Which when you consider they astounding amount of money it can take to resolve the damage from an oil leak, is not good news.

I worked at a property where the oil tank (plastic unbunded) was in a store room to the side of the house. My guys were on site doing work in the massive basement which ran under the whole of the house (which was a massive victorian place).

Anyway the fridge in the store room set on fire. Random electrical fault. Luckilly one of the lads smelt the smoke and put it out. Normally no one would have been there.

Best case the tank would have melted and flooded the whole basement with oil. Worse case the place would have burned to the ground.

This house must be worth £3 Million. It would have been a bad day for them. I got them to check their insurance details. Not covered (covered now).

(Oh and we did some work to make safe the oil tank in the future).

 

[Nostrum]

What happens when you sign off a boiler! Within 4 weeks, the home owner gets a notification licence from GSR, the document encourages the household to invite GSR for a free inspection. Suddenly your back side is up for a chance that the household doesn't call GSR in, day and night you'll be praying to God, there will be no dispute for as long as that boiler is on the wall, because I tell you, no matter how thorough you think you've been with your checks, GSR will find something wrong! Do I need to go on describing the rest!

I've had an un informed inspection from gas safe and would happily let them do it again. Didn't find anything wrong. Im sure they could have if they wanted to but they aren't out to string you up by your balls. Again it comes down to education. How many customer know about the notification process, or the consequences of not receiving one?

How about the customer applying for a notification prior to the job being completed, then the installer self certifying that installation using some unique number on the notification. If the customer doesn't receive confirmation of it they can chase the installer, or better still gas safe can do that. The system as it stands is flawed because the installer has all the cards and keeps the notification secret to an unsuspecting customer.

 

[Reg Man]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

 

[Dannypipe]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

 

[Reg Man]

Yeah, but we're talking about domestic work on the whole here. Which is a different beast, and it's generally frowned upon.

Ok agree with that, what about the rest of the post.

 

[Masood]

What is the definition of signing off work? If you are signing it off because you are misleading someone into thinking that you have installed the installation when you have not, then you take the consequence's if it goes bad. At the end of the day if your asked out to commission an appliance which you know to be installed by a none registered person, you carry out rigorous examination of the installation, do all the necessary tests and make it clear on the paperwork what you were there to do and that the installer is unknown or otherwise. Report the non registered person if known to GSR. Therefore you are only there to ensure that on the day of your visit the installation was gas tight and the appliance was installed as far as you could see in accordance with manufacturer instructions and passed all relevant tests. In the commercial industrial world of gas fitting, it is usual for the install to be done by others and the commissioning to be carried out by another company, not a lot of difference.

You make a very valid point, and IF that were the case - that I was given free reign to inspect and test everything to my satisfaction (and be properly paid for my time) then I'd have no problem commissioning an installation. But in general, a GSR will be asked to sign off a third-party install because the customer is a tightwad and doesn't want to pay so has employed a non-GSR to install the appliance (or has done it him/herself).

For the record, I have commissioned and registered one installation by a non-GSR person. My father in law installed his own boiler during a refurb of his place. He is a former ship's engineer and chartered electrical engineer. His soldering/welding/electrics and engineering knowledge would put 99% of plumbers to shame. I had no qualms about doing it because I know the quality of his work, he asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure he did it right, and he called me at various stages to double-check things. He did it for the job satisfaction, not to penny-pinch or cut corners, and I had no issues putting my name to it.