Unvented cylinder installed but no G3 qualification

[Jurgenjay]

I had an unvented cylinder (and gas boiler) installed by a Gas Safe Register engineer. He later informed Gas Safe Register which issued me a gas certificate. But Gas Safe Register told me I should have a Building Regulation Certificate for unvented cylinder installation.

But the gas engineer did not arrange that unvented cylinder certificate for me.
I checked he has no G3 qualification.

Is this the reason he did not arrange that unvented cylinder certificate (via Gas Safe Register ) for me?

What would happen or what consequence will be if he is not G3 qualification?

 

[Ric2013]

Well, in the best case scenario which is that the installation meets all requirements of the building regulations and has been installed correctly by sheer luck, then the consequence could be nothing until you come to sell the house.

On the other hand, the system might not be safe to use at all.

 

[steadyon]

1. It is YOUR responsibility to register the installation of an unvented hot water cylinder with Building Control at your local council.
2. A G3 registered installer will be registered with a competent persons scheme, run by an accredited organisation such as NAPIT or Gas Safe (and for Gas Safe it is different from the competent persons scheme for gas related work). There are others.
3. Normally a G3 registered person will self certify that the installation meets required standards, and notify Building Control, or provide you with the necessary documentation to notify Building Control.
4. If the installer doesn't do it, Building Control will inspect the installation and sign it off, but they will charge you several hundred pounds for the privilege.
5. If the installer was an employee of a firm, that firm may be registered, in which case you should be able to get them to do what is necessary.
6. They aren't really supposed to do it, but you might find a G3 registered installer prepared to check the installation and issue the necessary paperwork.
7. Don't forget such installations require an annual service at around £85 (outer London).

 

[SimonG]

Stick some photos up of the cylinder install.

If the install is compliant then no issues. If you come to sell and you have no building regs certificate for it then you simply procure an indemnity policy which works out at a fraction of the cost of building regs notification.

Also as a general note people need to make sure that the tradespeople they employ have the necessary competencies and qualifications for the job.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Well, in the best case scenario which is that the installation meets all requirements of the building regulations and has been installed correctly by sheer luck, then the consequence could be nothing until you come to sell the house.

On the other hand, the system might not be safe to use at all.

The gas engineer is GSR registered, but not G3 qualified, therefore I guess he did not arrange the unvented cylinder installation certificate to me....

 

[Jurgenjay]

1. It is YOUR responsibility to register the installation of an unvented hot water cylinder with Building Control at your local council.
2. A G3 registered installer will be registered with a competent persons scheme, run by an accredited organisation such as NAPIT or Gas Safe (and for Gas Safe it is different from the competent persons scheme for gas related work). There are others.
3. Normally a G3 registered person will self certify that the installation meets required standards, and notify Building Control, or provide you with the necessary documentation to notify Building Control.
4. If the installer doesn't do it, Building Control will inspect the installation and sign it off, but they will charge you several hundred pounds for the privilege.
5. If the installer was an employee of a firm, that firm may be registered, in which case you should be able to get them to do what is necessary.
6. They aren't really supposed to do it, but you might find a G3 registered installer prepared to check the installation and issue the necessary paperwork.
7. Don't forget such installations require an annual service at around £85 (outer London).

Thank you for your detailed reply!
For 1, This I can do. But the concern is the installer did not arrange the unvented cylinder installation certificate via GSR which confirmed to me that I do need this!
2, The installer is registered with GSR, but not G2 qualified for unvented cylinder.
3, Yes, but he did not. Only arranged the boiler gas certificate via GSR which told me I do need separate unvented cylinder certificate.
4, That will be the last step. As the installer should issue or arrange that unvented cylinder installation certificate himself, right?
5, The installer has a business himself. Not work for a company.
6, OK, so I can find someone with G3 registered installer to check and issue the paperwork---this should be before I arrange Building Control to do it, right?
7, Thank you for this reminder!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Stick some photos up of the cylinder install.

If the install is compliant then no issues. If you come to sell and you have no building regs certificate for it then you simply procure an indemnity policy which works out at a fraction of the cost of building regs notification.

Also as a general note people need to make sure that the tradespeople they employ have the necessary competencies and qualifications for the job.

Thank you Simon!

indemnity policy seems a good idea as I heard building regs notification/Building Control cost is hundreds of pounds...

I attached photos for your reference, if you need more detailed photos or different angles please let me know!

I understand your general note, but I assume many normal customers/household people won't know what qualifications to do the gas jobs. I knew he was worcester bosch accredited installer, I knew he is GSR registered, I thought that was enough.
But only GSR today confirmed to me I do need unvented cylinder installation certification which only can be issued by G3 qualified engineer....

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Thank you Simon!

indemnity policy seems a good idea as I heard building regs notification/Building Control cost is hundreds of pounds...

I attached photos for your reference, if you need more detailed photos or different angles please let me know!

I understand your general note, but I assume many normal customers/household people won't know what qualifications to do the gas jobs. I knew he was worcester bosch accredited installer, I knew he is GSR registered, I thought that was enough.
But only GSR today confirmed to me I do need unvented cylinder installation certification which only can be issued by G3 qualified engineer....

Looks like it's fitted correctly, and overall not a bad job. I've seen qualified G3 engineers do much worse of job, and leave them in dangerous conditions...

I'd leave it, it's fitted now. You'll struggle to get anyone else to sign it off, and the cost of getting it authorised by Building control will just be not worth it.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Looks fine only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained

 

[townfanjon]

Not hundreds of pounds , last time I used our council it was less than £200 .

 

[Ric2013]

Not hundreds of pounds , last time I used our council it was less than £200 .

That was my thought. Think it's a bit cheaper to notify first than to notify retrospectively but 2-300 sounds about what these things cost last time I looked.

I don't think the OP will need a G3 installer to check if notifying to Building Control as BC would be checking? I think the idea is that a G3 installer might be prepared to pretend he'd done the work and fudge the paperwork accordingly if the OP doesn't want to do it properly through the BC route.

Sorry to hear the OP has been dragged into this situation unwittingly, but good to know there are no dangerous installation defects.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Looks like it's fitted correctly, and overall not a bad job. I've seen qualified G3 engineers do much worse of job, and leave them in dangerous conditions...

I'd leave it, it's fitted now. You'll struggle to get anyone else to sign it off, and the cost of getting it authorised by Building control will just be not worth it.

Thank you for your reply which makes me feel better!

And your suggestion also makes sense!

But if I request the installer to get the certificate for me, he should do that at his cost, right? e.g. he get someone with G3 qualification to sign it off and issue certificate for me

 

[Jurgenjay]

Not hundreds of pounds , last time I used our council it was less than £200 .

Thank you for this information!
Last time your council checked and approved your installation? Then you were lucky that the job done had no issue!

 

[Jurgenjay]

Looks fine only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained

Thank you Shaun!
You mean next time when service the cylinder, it has to drain it?
If yes, then I suspect this can be an issue!
As last time when the installer tried to fix a leak in radiator (all radiators were installed by this engineer too), he drained the system but did NOT add inhibitor which should be added once drained the system.
So if next time when do service, I doubt he would bother to service they cylinder i.e. drain it properly and add inhibitor....

Same as this time, he installed the unvented cylinder but did not arrange the certificate to me---he assumed I wouldn't know it;
And last month, he drained the system without adding inhibitor, he assummed I wouldn't know....

 

[Jurgenjay]

That was my thought. Think it's a bit cheaper to notify first than to notify retrospectively but 2-300 sounds about what these things cost last time I looked.

I don't think the OP will need a G3 installer to check if notifying to Building Control as BC would be checking? I think the idea is that a G3 installer might be prepared to pretend he'd done the work and fudge the paperwork accordingly if the OP doesn't want to do it properly through the BC route.

Sorry to hear the OP has been dragged into this situation unwittingly, but good to know there are no dangerous installation defects.

Thank you for your point!
If finding a G3 installer first might be pretending he had done the work then certainly I can go for Building Control to do it straight away!
But before that, do you think I should get the installer to certify the unvented cylinder himself? e.g. he finds the G3 qualified engineer to check and issue the certificate?
Or if he cannot, then I get Building Control to check and certify it but at his cost? (Although I know him wouldn't spend £1 for his fault....)
"but good to know there are no dangerous installation defects"====Did you check my photos and concluded this?
If so, I would feel better!

 

[Scott_D]

Did the quote state he would notify the cylinder?

 

[Jurgenjay]

Did the quote state he would notify the cylinder?

Not remember that was mentioned.
But GSR confirmed to me that if you had unvented cylinder done, you need Building Regulations Certificate!

 

[Ric2013]

[D]o you think I should get the installer to certify the unvented cylinder himself? e.g. he finds the G3 qualified engineer to check and issue the certificate?

You could always ask, but from your description of him, you'll probably find he'll say BC certification wasn't included (and that somehow you were supposed to know that) and let you get on with it.

Or if he cannot, then I get Building Control to check and certify it but at his cost? (Although I know him wouldn't spend £1 for his fault....)

I'm not sure what your legal position is, sorry.

"but good to know there are no dangerous installation defects"====Did you check my photos and concluded this?
If so, I would feel better!

I'm not G3 registered myself, nor knowledgable enough to have an opinion on it. However, ShaunCorbs clearly knows what he's talking about and he'd be the first to say if he thought it were dangerous. He's said it looks fine and I'm going by what he's said.

 

[Jurgenjay]

You could always ask, but from your description of him, you'll probably find he'll say BC certification wasn't included (and that somehow you were supposed to know that) and let you get on with it.


I'm not sure what your legal position is, sorry.


I'm not G3 registered myself, nor knowledgable enough to have an opinion on it. However, ShaunCorbs clearly knows what he's talking about and he'd be the first to say if he thought it were dangerous. He's said it looks fine and I'm going by what he's said.

Thank you for replying separately!
The 1st and 2nd regarding legal position is: whether it is his responsibility to certify the unvented cylinder. If yes, then although he might say "wasn't included", but GSR confirmed I do need this certificate! So he cannot let me get on with it?
And If he cannot certify it then I have to get Building Control to do it, but he should cover this cost---although he will try not to as I know him/what he is like.....

Yes, I also got the opinion from ShaunCorbs which makes me feel better! Thought you were another one to give me confidence of the installation

 

[Ric2013]

You can always have a chat with your local Building Control department ('my father's thinking of having a new cylinder installed by this chap' kind of thing, if you don't want to commit) and you'll get an idea of how helpful they are likely to be. Generally they are interested in keeping buildings safe and compliant and are quite approachable if they see you as someone who is trying to follow the rules.

I suspect what GSR is saying is that the cylinder needs to be certified by someone, which could be Building Control, not that the installer had to do it? I feel it would have been professional for the installer to bring up the matter of Building Control and who was dealing with it before taking on the job, but I really don't know what your rights are. On the other hand, I would certainly expect the work to be carried out to a compliant standard, so he needs to make good anything the BC officer doesn't like, if there is anything.

For what it's worth, the general appearance of the installation does inspire confidence and I think what Shaun is saying about draining will be the cylinder itself, not the primary water of your heating system, so inhibitor is not going to be lost when this is done.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Looks fine only nit pick is combo / inlet valve not above cylinder but that’s only a real issue when servicing cylinder just needs to be drained

Hi Shaun, did you mean draining will be the cylinder itself, not the primary water of your heating system?

Actually, when someone comes to do annual service for boiler and cylinder, do they need to drain the system every year/time?

Thanks in advance for letting me know!

 

[Scott_D]

Hi Shaun, did you mean draining will be the cylinder itself, not the primary water of your heating system?

Actually, when someone comes to do annual service for boiler and cylinder, do they need to drain the system every year/time?

Thanks in advance for letting me know!

Around half of your hot water from the cylinder (not water to your radiators) would need to be drained should there be an issue with the brass combination valve.
It’s not fitted wrongly as there are no rules about where it should be fitted but best practice is to fit it as high as possible.

 

[Jurgenjay]

Around half of your hot water from the cylinder (not water to your radiators) would need to be drained should there be an issue with the brass combination valve.
It’s not fitted wrongly as there are no rules about where it should be fitted but best practice is to fit it as high as possible.

Thank you Scott_d for your input!
According to what you said, if no issue with the brass combination valve, then no need to drain the cylinder?
That is to say when do servicing cylinder no need to drain it?

 

[EvilDrPorkChop]

Thank you Scott_d for your input!
According to what you said, if no issue with the brass combination valve, then no need to drain the cylinder?
That is to say when do servicing cylinder no need to drain it?

There isn't a need to drain on servicing as you can take the filter out without draining it as there's a non return valve after the filter. Providing it isn't faulty you should be able to clean the filter out.

As others have said it's best practice to fit it high as possible, but it isn't incorrect. I've fitted many low down due to installation constraints etc. Even the one in my own house is nearly at the bottom of the cylinder.

 

[Jurgenjay]

There isn't a need to drain on servicing as you can take the filter out without draining it as there's a non return valve after the filter. Providing it isn't faulty you should be able to clean the filter out.

As others have said it's best practice to fit it high as possible, but it isn't incorrect. I've fitted many low down due to installation constraints etc. Even the one in my own house is nearly at the bottom of the cylinder.

Thanks a lot for this point!
I thought every time do serving needed to drain the cylinder due to low positioned combined valves...
If no need, then it is simpler for both engineer and my mind

By the way, cleaning the filter out is part of serving right?