Can you sign off an installation done by a non-GSR plumber?

[Dan]

The average guy spends a lot of time (sometimes years) and money to earn their gas safe ticket so if some fly by night comes along and says "I`ll give you £x to sign my work off" that in my book is just plain wrong and dangerous to anybody that lives in the same street.

So money then?

If it is legal to do so. He surely just needs to follow the regs?

(I still haven't at this point checked myself so I'm not saying it is - I'm asking).

 

[Dan]

Seems to me it's incredibly frowned upon but legal perhaps.

As a GSR can be fined for cutting corners too.

But perhaps there does need to be sent pressure on Gas Safe from you lot to get them to make some changes?

 

[ShaunCorbs]

So the thread is a bit misleading maybe. Seem to have got a bit roudy against some that suggest this. I'll clear up the thread a bit (and have done a couple of posts already).

What exactly are the rules?
Any gas install needs checking and making sure it safe, and anyone can install anything in there own home but as soon as you start selling services you need to be registered

Can your apprentice run pipe and hang the boiler, as long as you check it as you go?
Yes he can, like the old timer used to say anyone can run a gas pipe upto the last foot where it connection to the gas line, and tested afterwards

Can you actually sign off somebody else fully doing it, as long as you do the checks? yes but anything goes wrong its your bum on the line

Are the couple of articles linked to just down to it going wrong? And if so, would a GSR plumber causing the same issue (i think the first link was the wrong flu was fitted?), Would he get a fine too?

im sure / hope he would know better / do the tests to make sure is safe and working as it should be

click to expand sorry

 

[ShaunCorbs]

yes of course its "at your own risk". Its your registration on the line. But having checked with GS, its perfectly ok.

no one is saying its not ok to do it many wouldn't sign a gas install off from the joe public as they dont know how they work/ trust them (normally want more than its cost them to install it themselves to sign it off)

 

[ShaunCorbs]

Seems to me it's incredibly frowned upon but legal perhaps.

As a GSR can be fined for cutting corners too.

But perhaps there does need to be sent pressure on Gas Safe from you lot to get them to make some changes?

sorry to say they wont change anything, got no bite

 

[Dan]

sorry to say they wont change anything, got no bite

It's a shame for the industry but members asking about it and being mentioned in a derogatory way for it shouldn't happen. Especially by staff on a forum.

I've cleared up the thread we can be professional if we disagree. It's fine to but be professional.

 

[ShaunCorbs]

It's a shame for the industry but members asking about it and being mentioned in a derogatory way for it shouldn't happen. Especially by staff on a forum.

I've cleared up the thread we can be professional if we disagree. It's fine to but be professional.

its the same when someone asks which boiler or car etc is the best each have there own opinion and no 10 are the same

just have to keep it on the right track and friendly else it gets bogged down and of-topic

 

[cr0ft]

Personally I would never sign off anyone elses gas work outside of our business. My view is I've spent thousands on it (and am about to spend more on commercial tickets next month) so where is the incentive for my business to do this?

Like most things, people will only be fined if something dangerous comes to light... Not suggesting that makes it right though! Ultimately it's up to individual engineers as to what level of risk they are willing to take when taking work on.

 

[king of pipes]

I personally would not do it but i know engineers who do easy money for them i guess . cheers kop

 

[student plumber]

I, (like so many others), have been told you can install but not commission a gas boiler and then get GSR to commission it.
And he checks everything and it's correct and safe, fair enough, in a perfect world; but as the whole world knows, this is not a perfect world.

As someone posted this above I would agree with them, just as I agree that there could be a "tick box" (Quote, Steve the plumber), to say it had been done by someone unregistered and it needed following up.

But it appears to me there is a gap in the middle.
It's a bit like a two trains leaving two separate stations traveling at different speeds, but they have to meet at another station inbetween to exchange passengers, but something is wrong with one of the trains and it falls short.
So who helps the passengers?

Considering both measures allow unscrupulous people in to make a fast buck with no regard to safety there is only one course of action IMHO.

I did have the view the unregistered could just do the water pipes; but how does the GSR know they have all been done properly; has the flue been done properly; has the boiler been secured to the wall properly, so many possibilities that the GSR will be blamed for.

Unless it was done by an apprentice while being watched by GSR, the work should only be done by a GSR; gas line, water pipes, heating pipes, cylinder, expansion vessel, only by GSR and they are confirmed as GSR at every job.

Time and money, yes, but what other options are there.

FYI, I know an unqualified someone who has installed unvented cylinders, he says "Nah it's fine, it's just a cylinder".

Give 'em an inch and they take a mile.

 

[SimonG]

There's two sides to the coin.

The one where somebody is coming in after an illegal installer and just filling in bits of paper, signing something and disappearing with the cash. Tres dodgee.

Then there's the one where cust sat with new boiler and installer flits. Joe Bloggs is approached to sort it. To me, as long as Joe Bloggs, takes it back to where he knows it's spot on, completes it, completes the paperwork and registers it is fine. Better to have a safe boiler after all.

But then the second situation can be split in two. One as above and the other is a diy cust or cust knowingly employing somebody to do an illegal install.

I get it with the oil. Cust diy or done on cheap and selling house. Solicitors want a certificate. Turn up. Yep. Can do it. But its 500 to put everything right plus the certificate plus 60 for todays visit.

Unless the governing authority is going to grow a set then everybody is just urinating in the wind.

 

[king of pipes]

Stick to the rules and regulations young friend you cant be wrong then , dont worry what others do you can sleep well knowing your in the clear if something should go wrong cheers kop.

 

[student plumber]

It is possible that a gas boiler or any boiler that has the potential to be dangerous could well be installed properly by an unregistered fitter.

But then customer or fitter has to get registered fitter to do the L3 side of things and commission it, they will be hesitant as they don't know how much was done and how well.
For them to be satisfied they may want to do more extensive checks and who can blame them.

This inconvenience, time and money will ultimately be passed onto customer, and quite rightly as the job has been done and should be paid.

But some customers will probably try and save money and that is where the problems start, expensive install and alive or cheap install and dead.

The unregistered fitter gets a bad rep as a result as they would've been well aware of the outcome.

I think very much that if such an offer came my way I would turn it down.

 

[king of pipes]

Keep that attitude young gun and you will go far, every month in the gas engineer publication there is a list of all the prosicutions published for illegal gas installs dont become one yourself . all the best kop

 

[spanner]

Plumber or not a plumber. And regarding whither in an installation or not there are current procedure and I think far too much to be even editing such a thing. To me I'm in. And if I had any "request" of signing of plumbers Gas work they carry out I have to say a NO!
The End
That Can be a right pain in the oops.
If a plumber why not do exams pass all the requirements and get on the GSR instead of doing half of the job..

Strange

 

[Harvest Fields]

It's a NO from me

 

[Leezygeezer]

Customers are becoming more aware, not necessarily of the need/requirement to use a gas safe registered engineer. More the instal is complete and then they ask for the building compliance certificate, then the installer disappears, and then a registered business is contacted to "register" the boiler.
As a registered guy you have to consider lots of different potential issues, did the customer fit it and are they just trying it on? Were they fully aware of the illegal guy, happy to save a few quid and now want it signing off for whatever reason; or were they just naive.

My advice to the customer would be, request a safety check from gas safe register, it's free. Once completed a full list of all installation defects will be issued and then the genuine registered guy can look at what is needed to put it right and charge accordingly.

I used to charge a flat fee of £1000.00 , do you think that unreasonable? I would remove the flue and take the boiler off the wall, re flush the system (because it was probably never done in the first place). Test all the pipe work and refit, then you become responsible for the whole system, gas, hot and cold, central heating etc.

Doesn't sound too much now does it.

The alternative, maybe there is a safety issue and you signed it off for £50.00, causes an incident. HSE get involved, you go to court and the starting point is 6 months in prison and everything that implies. Or maybe you get lucky, but why would you not charge in line with your skills and experience? No one is lucky forever, and customers have zero loyalty when it comes to dropping you in it!

 

[spanner]

Have seen it done before about a year ago , and from what I've learned because the engineer weren't present in the first place and a plumber has replaced a cooker.. Sounds simple.
When the client could smell Gas and this was a few months after cooker was installed and has been certified
There had been a smell of Gas which was ignored as it was intermittent.
That weren't the end ..
But the whole carcass of the installation had to be removed and reinstalled.
I was called to the job and only to find it was installed by an unregistered plumbing agent when asking for the engineer and was told he's on holidays and won't be back. BY THE CUSTOMER
The whole carcass had to be removed because of a Pipe containing Gas under the kitchen tiled floor carrying live Gas had a leak prior to the installation being carried out in the first place
And realised...
All in all it was immediately dangerous.
And could have been a seriously critical outcome.

That was enough for me to see at ONCE

 

[surreygasman]

I, (like so many others), have been told you can install but not commission a gas boiler and then get GSR to commission it.
And he checks everything and it's correct and safe, fair enough, in a perfect world; but as the whole world knows, this is not a perfect world.

As someone posted this above I would agree with them, just as I agree that there could be a "tick box" (Quote, Steve the plumber), to say it had been done by someone unregistered and it needed following up.

But it appears to me there is a gap in the middle.
It's a bit like a two trains leaving two separate stations traveling at different speeds, but they have to meet at another station inbetween to exchange passengers, but something is wrong with one of the trains and it falls short.
So who helps the passengers?

Considering both measures allow unscrupulous people in to make a fast buck with no regard to safety there is only one course of action IMHO.

I did have the view the unregistered could just do the water pipes; but how does the GSR know they have all been done properly; has the flue been done properly; has the boiler been secured to the wall properly, so many possibilities that the GSR will be blamed for.

Unless it was done by an apprentice while being watched by GSR, the work should only be done by a GSR; gas line, water pipes, heating pipes, cylinder, expansion vessel, only by GSR and they are confirmed as GSR at every job.

Time and money, yes, but what other options are there.

FYI, I know an unqualified someone who has installed unvented cylinders, he says "Nah it's fine, it's just a cylinder".

Give 'em an inch and they take a mile.

Its all well and good for this unregistered person to say "Its just a cylinder" but perhaps they havent been to a manufacturers' test site where they overpressurise an unvented cylinder in test conditions in a open space and demonstrate the cylinder exploding ! Understanding the full regs for UV cylinders in respect of all control equipment and in particular pressure & temperature release valve is absolutely critical. I have no time for anyone who isnt registered in any way and continues to carry out work.

 

[GH77]

Whenever I put my name to anything, be it a benchmark or Gas Safety for example I have to be sure that I could stand up in a court and defend that everything was correct when I left the property. For me that means only signing off your own work and then sleeping soundly at night

 

[SimonG]

Went to look at a bathroom yesterday afternoon. Spotted the newish worcester heatslave. Mentioned last time at that particular property, doing a conservatory floor, old boiler was in, an old heatslave, and builder had moved it. Asked who fitted new one. Didn't recognise name and he had loads of trouble getting oil to boiler. Asked about documentation. Oh yes. So asked did you get cd10, cd11 and building regs certificate. Erm no. Just phoned to say checked with building control and never registered

 

[cr0ft]

There's two sides to the coin.

The one where somebody is coming in after an illegal installer and just filling in bits of paper, signing something and disappearing with the cash. Tres dodgee.

Then there's the one where cust sat with new boiler and installer flits. Joe Bloggs is approached to sort it. To me, as long as Joe Bloggs, takes it back to where he knows it's spot on, completes it, completes the paperwork and registers it is fine. Better to have a safe boiler after all.

But then the second situation can be split in two. One as above and the other is a diy cust or cust knowingly employing somebody to do an illegal install.

I get it with the oil. Cust diy or done on cheap and selling house. Solicitors want a certificate. Turn up. Yep. Can do it. But its 500 to put everything right plus the certificate plus 60 for todays visit.

Unless the governing authority is going to grow a set then everybody is just urinating in the wind.

And the biggest Sod take of all is that if the solicitor doesn't get a certificate the seller can just pay £30 for an insurance policy to protect the buyer from any issues arising in the future, same for electrics, window fitting and any other 'controlled building work'. I know this as we did this for some windows in our old house where a mate fitted them. Makes you wonder why we bother sometimes!

 

[SimonG]

And the biggest **** take of all is that if the solicitor doesn't get a certificate the seller can just pay £30 for an insurance policy to protect the buyer from any issues arising in the future, same for electrics, window fitting and any other 'controlled building work'. I know this as we did this for some windows in our old house where a mate fitted them. Makes you wonder why we bother sometimes!

Wasn't aware of that. Typical though.