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Discuss Fast track courses worth it? in the Plumbing Courses area at Plumbers Forums

Hi Petercj
First off, yes I have worked in the industry for a long time (34 years) & have worked in most areas, so you could call me an old hand but not tired nor demotivated, maybe a tad despondent but not enough to stop me wanting to fight to maintain standards in an industry I love.
The transferable skills you talk about, communication ,marketing & people skills are all well & good & may allow someone to run a successful plumbing business bar the one important missing skill you neglected to mention, that of plumbing !!!!!
Most of us thought it worth while learning that one first & if good at it & though it was something that we could sell, we would start a business. What you seem to be suggesting is the other way around, learning on the job at the customers expense, still remaining level-headed while the water pours though their ceiling will be handy or perhaps it may never have happened if they had been properly trained.
Your right about Masood's attitude & aptitude, (& a good few others) but it is also clear that we can't have a industry made up of people who solely enter via this route. If this way into the industry is to be allowed then some control on the numbers & entry level skills needs to be in place for everybody's sake.
 
Hi Petercj

The transferable skills you talk about, communication ,marketing & people skills are all well & good & may allow someone to run a successful plumbing business bar the one important missing skill you neglected to mention, that of plumbing !!!!!
.

As this thread is about training in plumbing, so learning the necessary skills is an implicit aspect of the topic: my point was that people making career changes often bring generic transferable skills and also a level of maturityto compliment their trade skills, which is not to suggest that they don't need to acquire the necessary plumbing skills.

Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges.

Such circumstances require the trainee to take considerable responsibility for their learning and to recognise that what they learn in college is only one aspect of what they need to do in order to develop their skills. Any trainer worth their salt will be explaining this to their students on day one. The more mature a trainee is, and the more life experience they have, the better the chances of them being able to sustain motivation and apply themselves with some consistency and determination.

I am aware that you have been involved in training, but I am somewhat surprised at the jaundice view you present of trainees sometimes.

Even if some people are naive, they are only trying to help themselves and find work after all said and done. Why not give them the benefit of your knowledge and experience without being so scathing?
 
Some fast track courses are useful. For example a plumber wanting to do an unvented course or learn the basics of tiling or electrics to add to the skills they have learned. Don't think it's a good way to learn a complete trade though.
 
Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges.

I am aware that you have been involved in training, but I am somewhat surprised at the jaundice view you present of trainees sometimes.

Even if some people are naive, they are only trying to help themselves and find work after all said and done. Why not give them the benefit of your knowledge and experience without being so scathing?

The difference between the two types of learner, which you seem to be ignoring Peter, is the 4 day's a week for 4 years that the apprentice does learning from the plumbers on site doing the actual job of plumbing, in the actual work place under there supervision. They have the opportunity through this time to see how what they are learning in a classroom is applied in the work place. Which is precisely the reason why doesn't work the other way. "Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges". Your words I believe ?

Can you guess what sort of training I have been involved in ? As far as giving the benefit of my knowledge & experience away, well I do that on a daily basis to those who will be able to make the best use of it & the reason I do it is simple, I came through a system where people gave me there knowledge & experience without me having to pay them, I am only returning what I owe.

The big question with a fragmented industry consisting of small firms & little money due to undercutting, who is able to take on an apprentice for this system to continue ??
 
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Is there a fast track course I can do to become one?

if you are time served the do your A1 and V1 (5-6 days total collating work/reports/ being checked doing a dual assessment) then you are a trainer, as plenty will say before i do, it also helps if you are no good at the job and need to get away from real work haha
 
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From my experience of the tutors at the local college you will also take a serious cut in money if you work for a normal college. I think you need to go to a specialist training centre if you want to earn big bucks like Kirk.
 
The difference between the two types of learner, which you seem to be ignoring Peter, is the 4 day's a week for 4 years that the apprentice does learning from the plumbers on site doing the actual job of plumbing, in the actual work place under there supervision. They have the opportunity through this time to see how what they are learning in a classroom is applied in the work place. Which is precisely the reason why doesn't work the other way. "Training in classroom conditions is about acquiring theory and know-how, and more often than not, there will be little opportunity to put such learning into practice within the college or training centre - which applies to most industrial training done in colleges". Your words I believe ?

Can you guess what sort of training I have been involved in ? As far as giving the benefit of my knowledge & experience away, well I do that on a daily basis to those who will be able to make the best use of it & the reason I do it is simple, I came through a system where people gave me there knowledge & experience without me having to pay them, I am only returning what I owe.

The big question with a fragmented industry consisting of small firms & little money due to undercutting, who is able to take on an apprentice for this system to continue ??

I think you must have misunderstood my post, because there's no way I would ever suggest that full time college training or anything similar could match up to 4 days on the job and one day in college - being the classic model for apprenticeship training in the past.

But the reality is that such training opportunities are not available to many people, even if they meet the eligibility criteria.

If people are unemployed, or they anticipate redundancy and they are desperate to get a foot on the first rung of the ladder, then fast-track training might be their only option.

When I see the term 'fast track' in an educational context I think of a condensed learning situation that means covering a lot of ground in a relatively short space of time, which is not the same thing as meaning it's a fast track into a job. However, for people who don't have established trade skills a fast-track course might give them the edge over someone who has done no training at all.

These days most employers want experienced people and they don't have much time for training people up, and at the moment it's an employers market anyway, so getting a foot on the ladder for newbies is likely to be tough. What I was saying is that if people bring maturity and other transferable skills to their endeavours then that is likely to increase their chances of success.

Fast-track learning usually means negotiating a steep learning curve, and so may not be suitable for some people, i.e. not everyone learns in the same way, and so FT is likely to suite some people more than others. If people bring established study skills and a good memory to their work, that's bound to help. Aptitude, and a positive but realistic attitude will also stand people in very good stead.

I helped to set up the Employment Training scheme in 1989/90, and did a year as a Training Assessor. The scheme was cribbed from the German model of training and was excellent. Had that scheme been properly supported and funded by the Thatcher Government Britain would be in a much better place today.

Unfortunately, the ideological leanings of a woman brought up in a corner shop led to abandonment of the Man Power Services commission and the associated Government SKILLS training centres, one of the functions of which was to act as a mechanism for coordinating the supply and demand of construction skills.

MPS/SKILLS training centres provided what could be considered fast-track training, but they did it with an emphasis on simulated work situations, rather than being class-room base. When assessing referrals for training as brickie they would look for basic dexterity, and being low on basic literacy skills wouldn't be a bar.

Britain has had 30 years of Government by people who preach responsibility rather than demonstrating any themselves - they've just abdicated all responsibility to the market place and private enterprise, and the current FU is the result.

But to focus on the current topic, I totally agree that 4 days in the workplace and one in college is an ideal model, but the reality is that it's not available to large numbers of people looking for such an opportunity, and it's unlikely to be practicable for people who have a family to support and so need a substantial wage.

With the changes in university funding the scene has been set for people with advanced academic skills to become interested in practical training, and I would think the gas industry will benefit from an influx of such folk.

If I had any say in the matter I would create an agency to do what the old MPSC commission did, and set up Government training centres around the country to provide the best training possible - but my thinking is what people now brand as 'old labour' (even though it was Ted Heath's Government that set up the MPSC)
 
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Fast track courses are a stepping stone into the industry for people not lucky enough to be able to get an apprenticeship at an early age.

Those that think they are a fully qualified plumber and can go out on their own soon as they finish their fast track course are destined to fail. Those that see it as a good way to learn the basics and see it as a starting point to a career in the plumbing industry will more than likely succeed.
 
Fast track courses are a stepping stone into the industry for people not lucky enough to be able to get an apprenticeship at an early age.
Not in all cases. Many believe the hype of easy earnings and a easy life and are bored with their current career. They see training as a plumber as being the answer.

After the banking crisis, many bank employees who had been doing the same specialised banking work for years, suddenly found themselves without a job and having read the false marketing promises from the training schools, then decided to become plumbers, sparks etc. Many had never even picked up a hammer before.

The course providers should be made to tell the truth and advertise realistic figures of what can be earned in todays times of Tory austerity.
 
Not in all cases. Many believe the hype of easy earnings and a easy life and are bored with their current career. They see training as a plumber as being the answer.

After the banking crisis, many bank employees who had been doing the same specialised banking work for years, suddenly found themselves without a job and having read the false marketing promises from the training schools, then decided to become plumbers, sparks etc. Many had never even picked up a hammer before.

The course providers should be made to tell the truth and advertise realistic figures of what can be earned in todays times of Tory austerity.

You know, it's a funny reversal of what happened in the late 90's - on the back of the dotcom boom and the scare of the millennium bug, thousands of people who had no IT background swallowed the hype from IT training providers who promised to turn people into network engineers, wed designers, programmers, and Windows NT administrators within 4 or six weeks!

The number of CVs I had from these poor hopefuls, lured in by the promise of £75K starting salaries, was upsetting beyond belief. By my reckoning fewer than 10% actually made a career in IT, and those that did, did it by determination and an unwavering commitment to make it, rather than those who believed that a cram course would give them real-world skills...
 
Agree Masood. Only with hard work and commitment has any business got any chance of making it. Only one on five UK businesses make it past the first 2 years of trading and that's without any government austerity policies in place.
 
From my experience of the tutors at the local college you will also take a serious cut in money if you work for a normal college. I think you need to go to a specialist training centre if you want to earn big bucks like Kirk.

a full time college lecturer on the top band is on about £36k ( 32hrs a week, only 25 teaching, for 40 weeks a year) if you are on a temp contract you will get about £30ph plus £7ph put aside for holiday pay so you dont starve
 
a full time college lecturer on the top band is on about £36k ( 32hrs a week, only 25 teaching, for 40 weeks a year) if you are on a temp contract you will get about £30ph plus £7ph put aside for holiday pay so you dont starve
What he hasn't told you is like most teachers you spend a lot more time doing the prep work, exams & correcting all the mistake on the stuff that the Guilds send through ( at the moment I am thier very own correction service, they send out the crap, I check it all for them & send it back telling them what is wrong all un-paid).
Oh & before you all go only 25 hours of proper work, you do want to try it first.
& 12 weeks off, I wish !!!!
 
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if you are time served the do your A1 and V1 (5-6 days total collating work/reports/ being checked doing a dual assessment) then you are a trainer, as plenty will say before i do, it also helps if you are no good at the job and need to get away from real work haha

i've heard it said, that you retire into teaching :innocent: haha
 
Welcome to the forum! I say go for it. I done it. I then looked into a franchise which would guarantee me work( 10 jobs a week) but opted out of that for cost reasons and I am now self employed. It is working for me. BUT I had a job to go to on completion of my course which allowed me to mess up from time to time under some one else's name and I had other people to talk to on how to get round situations. The course is a brief over view of plumbing and when you step into the pond you can't walk on water straight away, it will be falling on your head through a clients ceiling. It takes time out on the tools to know if you love the job. I would offer your services for free to a plumber and find out if you enjoy it before spending out on a course. Like the others have said you can be out of your depth pretty quick. You can't just turn things off then on again to reset it.(well some you can) ha ha. GOOD LUCK.
 
There have been four "fast track" plumbers in my area in the last few years, none of which had any relevant experience prior to setting up. The longest lasted about 18 months at it before giving up. I have had plenty of business going round putting right their work afterwards.
 
This will be probably sound a dumb question, but what is your guys thoughts on the qualification its self (the 6129) i did it at college, would you guys say its a cowboy route or is it just training centres that get the bad stick. Surely the 6129 is the same where ever its tought, and in that i would suggest its the qual that you guys have the problem with. I dont disagree there is no better experiance than the traditional route, but to brand everyone who does the 6129 as almost less worthy in my book is wrong. I take a similar approach to masood. Focus, never be affraid to ask, etc etc

I suppose the point i'm making is, thats its down to the individual. Just because the said person is "time served" or took traditional route doesn't in some cases make them competant.
 
There have been four "fast track" plumbers in my area in the last few years, none of which had any relevant experience prior to setting up. The longest lasted about 18 months at it before giving up. I have had plenty of business going round putting right their work afterwards.
Yes but how much money has been lost by you not doing the job as a whole & to the reputation of plumbing buy letting these people have a go to see if they could make it. Why or how did they get the jobs in the first place - answer they were cheaper - custards do not care to much how long they have been trading, what training they have etc etc, just are they cheap (of course there transferable people / business skills may well sell the job to the customer over you, LOL,)
 
This will be probably sound a dumb question, but what is your guys thoughts on the qualification its self (the 6129) i did it at college, would you guys say its a cowboy route or is it just training centres that get the bad stick. Surely the 6129 is the same where ever its tought, and in that i would suggest its the qual that you guys have the problem with. I dont disagree there is no better experiance than the traditional route, but to brand everyone who does the 6129 as almost less worthy in my book is wrong. I take a similar approach to masood. Focus, never be affraid to ask, etc etc

I suppose the point i'm making is, thats its down to the individual. Just because the said person is "time served" or took traditional route doesn't in some cases make them competant.
No, your right it doesn't but what do you recon the chances are that they will be ??? If you have not come via that route then I would suggest it's very difficult to talk with any authority.
As Fuzzy will no doubt tell you, nothing wrong with the 6129 on its own, every apprentice over the last 7+ years has had to do it, the problem is that unless you can do the 6089 NVQ you are not classed as qualified buy the industry (you could look at the 6089 as a trade skills test i.e. this is the minimum skills that anyone should have before we let them loose on the public), for the reasons already covered.
You can't really think that teaching is the same all over. Does it not make any difference to the learner how good or knowledgeable they are? The times over the years that I have had learners from other places in, to be told "we never covered that" "No they just told us the answers to those exams", "system planning, no we never did any of that they just told us what to put when we went in for the day"
 
No, your right it doesn't but what do you recon the chances are that they will be ??? If you have not come via that route then I would suggest it's very difficult to talk with any authority.
As Fuzzy will no doubt tell you, nothing wrong with the 6129 on its own, every apprentice over the last 7+ years has had to do it, the problem is that unless you can do the 6089 NVQ you are not classed as qualified buy the industry (you could look at the 6089 as a trade skills test i.e. this is the minimum skills that anyone should have before we let them loose on the public), for the reasons already covered.
You can't really think that teaching is the same all over. Does it not make any difference to the learner how good or knowledgeable they are? The times over the years that I have had learners from other places in, to be told "we never covered that" "No they just told us the answers to those exams", "system planning, no we never did any of that they just told us what to put when we went in for the day"
Your spot on chris yes, i don't disagree with anything you've said and don't wish to appear to be speaking with authority on the subject. I'm glad i did mine at college as we wasn't told what to put for this that and the other and the lecturer made us think. He also stuck to the rules like if your bends or marking wasn't within the 2mm tolerance you'd have to do it again lol. So i felt i got value for money from the course. That said, when i started going to peoples houses etc, it highlights just how little is tought on the course.

Thats when my own focus comes into it, just because the course is done i don't put the books down. I'm all the time trying to learn more because i want to suceed and build a reputation and business to be proud of.

Like i said though, your bang on with your comments and i wish i'd had the oppertunity (or forsight) when younger to go that way. But i didn't so i'm doing it the hard way.
 
Understood Hunterseye & I always wish the individuals well if they follow your ethos & will always try to help with info but does that mean that I am wrong to suggest that there needs to be some effective means of controlling who enters (the numbers) the industry, even if the means saying NO I am very sorry you can not be a plumber!, you are too old, can't find a plumbing job, not bright enough or by whatever other criteria we what to lay down.
 

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